3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[JosephH1]

Well after weeks of reading all of the great posts in this thread I purchased a Champion C46540. Since I live in the east I purchased it from Partsamerica.com. I wanted to let folks know that with a coupon code that I found here (wamu10) I purchased the generator for $269.10, which I think is a decent price. PA claims this to be a sale price, and if so I don't know how long it will continue to be on sale.
I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread for all of the guidance and advice. I will post an update after break-in. Thanks again!

[bobandcat]

Oldfordman wrote:
I was reading a thread on a different generator and someone posted some info on Honda Generators. What I found interesting was that Honda Spec's 10W-30 motor oil for their units, including the ones that use the 6.5HP enging that is almost exactly like the one used in the Champion units.

Honda Specs, 6.5HP equipped unit.

This tends to support the desire to use 10W-30 Motor Oil by many.

I asked the Champion tech-line about using multi-viscosity oil vs. straight weight oil. Here is a summary of the two recommndations followed by Champion's tech-line answer.

C46535 owners manual specifies multi-viscosity oils 5W-30 for 30 degrees F and lower, 10W30 for 0 to 120 degrees F and 30W for 70 to 120 degrees F.

Champion's website description of the C46535 specifies straight grade SAE 20W for 32 degrees F, 30W for 33 to 70 degrees F, 40W for 70 to 100 degrees F and 50W for 100+ degrees F.

Champions response:

Hello Bob,

Oil is always a mixed bag of questions and answers. I personally prefer a straight grade oil, but not everyone has the access to a variety. My best choice it to use a multigrade up to the 70 degree temperatures as in the manual and use a straight grade for higher temperaturs as on the web site. When the temperatures are high, you dont need a lot of multi viscosity oil. Use a premium grade oil and you will never go wrong. They all carry the APi rating that meets or exceeds any Champion requirement for oil.

Hope this helps your decision.

Best regards,

Paul Cole
Sr. Tech.
Champion Power Equipment Inc.

[professor95]

pafcu wrote:
As I previously posted,I am in the market for a new genny for my 5'er. I would like to make an informed decision when I do purchase. I have read a lot of positive comments on the Champion RV ready generator's features, but have been unable to secure any data on its long term reliability. What material is the engine block of the Champion made of? Does it have a cast iron cylinder sleeve?

Virtually all GX type Chonda engines are machined from a cast aluminum block made by one of two major Chinese foundries. I do not know of any manufacturers that insert a cast iron sleeve as part of the maching process (but it is possible).

The rough castings are sold to engine manufacturers who have varied methods of machining. Some use high tolerance CNC equipment to assure precise clearances and trueness. Others are alleged to use manual machining methods or older less precise CNC equipment. (Please note the word "alleged").

As anyone who has ever rebuilt an engine will tell you, all of the above are critical to longevity and even the best parts will quickly fail if items like ring gap, bore size, piston clearance, bearing clearance, etc. are not right on the mark.

Champion Power Equipment and several other major Chinese brands apparently adhere to these machining standards. There is absolutely no reason to believe that engines from these manufacturers will not last as long, or longer than their Honda look-alike's.

Champion has told me on at least two occasions that they do not claim to make a Honda clone. (Again, note the word "claim".) Champion has told me that they have actually identified problems inherent to the original Honda GX-200 valve train and have developed a modified design that has improved reliability in that area.

This forum is getting on in age. It has in fact become an extension of "Myth Busters" since we have indeed proven that our major brand preferences are not "Chinese junk that will fly apart in 50 hours or less". I do not recall any reports of engines from the major manufacturers throwing connecting rods or just plain old long wearing out.

If you are concerned about long term usage, go with a manufacturer that has a proven track record and well established parts/service network. The "Whiperwill" brand sold by the guy at a flea market for $199.99 may look like a Champ or other know brand, but I can promise you it is not built by them. I can also promise you when you need parts or support, he will be no where to be found.

Keep your oil changes regular. Change the air filter as recommended. Don't overload or over rev the engine and it should last for many, many years.

[bobandcat]

pafcu wrote:
I have read a lot of positive comments on the Champion RV ready generator's features, but have been unable to secure any data on its long term reliability. What material is the engine block of the Champion made of? Does it have a cast iron cylinder sleeve?
Right now, my decision is between the Champion and another chinese made genny sold by a reputable US company. The price difference is about $200, but I know what I am getting with the higher cost unit (both performance-wise and realibility).
Thanks for any information you may have.

pafcu

Pafcu,
E-mail tech@championpowerequipment.com at Champion. Ask your questions regarding the engine materials details and expected life of the genset, etc. I have contacted Champion's tech line a couple of time and generally get an answer with 24 hours.

What is the name of the "reputable US company" that you are considering? I know Onan is selling a Chinese version. I would be interested in knowing what other US generator companies are including Chinese gensets in their line-up.

[professor95]

dougx75 wrote:
Just my two bits....... I had a friend who bought one of these it ran 10 hours and blew the generator. It was real pretty watching it blow sparks out the generator end. He never did find any parts or info on it

I'm sorry, Doug. But, somehow I have missed what "one of these" is.

There are at least 50 Chinese companies that are building and exporting generators in this class with the Chonda engine. This translates to several hundred different name plates at the retail level.

As I have noted before on this form, not all of these little gennys are created equal, even if they all look similar.

The Chonda (Chinese Honda Clone) engines are are universally made from the same castings. But, the machining by the manufacturer ultimately determines the quality and longevity of the engine.

As for the generator head itself? Well, some should have never left the boat. Variations in how and what they are made of are extensive.

What the forum has established is that units sold under the Champion Power Equipment, WEN PowerPro and Powerwise labels all have good quality generator heads that use solid state automatic voltage regulators. These units are well assembled using the proper gauge wiring, circuit breakers and outlets. THD is low and output very stable. We also have determined that parts for Champion equipment are readily available and, with a little longer wait, parts for the other leading models may be obtained from established service centers.

Even the best built and designed equipment sometimes fails. The frequency and failure incidents are what this forum has strived to identify.

Please share with us what marque "one of these" really is.

[Oldfordman]

I was reading a thread on a different generator and someone posted some info on Honda Generators. What I found interesting was that Honda Spec's 10W-30 motor oil for their units, including the ones that use the 6.5HP enging that is almost exactly like the one used in the Champion units.

Honda Specs, 6.5HP equipped unit.

This tends to support the desire to use 10W-30 Motor Oil by many.

Perhaps the "Chinglish" manual that accomplies many of the "Clone" generators takes into account the quality of motor oils available in the Home Country, not what we take for granted here in the "West".

[ib516]

pafcu wrote:
I have been reading all the positive comments in this thread on the Champion generator and am nearly convinced to purchase one.
However, I have been unable to find any information on long term reliability, specifically related to the engine block. Does this generator have a cast iron block or does it have an aluminum block with a cast iron cylinder sleeve?
I would appreciate any comments related to its long term realibility.

I have an Elim 3000w unit, and I've had it for two years now. I've run it in winter @ -30* (Canada), and for hours on end in the summer. I have yet to have a problem with it. Starts easy every time. I don't know how many hours I have on it, I would guess 100 or so?

That said, I did find it using a bit of oil this summer, but I think I had the wrong oil in it. My BIL bought a Champion, and his came with an actual manual. My Elim came with a pamphlet written in "chinglish" and it was basically useless. Lots of pictures of the generator with a sad or happy face drawn on it to describe good or bad use situations. In the Champion manual, it says to use SAE 30, 40 or even 50 weight oil, depending on the ambient temp. I was using 10w30 in hot temperatures, and it would use a 1/10 of a quart in a few hours of use. I'll try thicker oil this summer and see what happens. Never any blue smoke or anything, just some minor oil consumption.

[MrWizard]

I put over 1000 hrs on the 1200 watt unit before buying the 3500 watt RV ready champion and giving the little one away, it sat for 6 months unused, then started on the 3rd pull, when they needed it for a power outage last month.

but to answer the the kipor question, there is still a couple of kipor threads running, but the one distributer is not longer the distributer prices have gone up, and kipor won't warrant the ones the first drist sold..

so there are some pOED people out there

champion warrants the generator, wehter you buy from kragens, shucks, or tractor supply or cabeles.. doesn't matter

[MFinCA]

pafcu wrote:
I would appreciate any comments related to its long term reliability.

I have one of the Champion RV generators and am happy with it. I have about 10 hours on it now, and expect to put maybe 100 hours on it this year (maybe more). If I get only 100 hours of use out of it, it only cost me about $3.00 plus gas per hour to run it. ($300/100 hours)

While I would be upset it didn't last longer, I'd still consider it a bargain. When all is said and done, I'd expect the unit to last for several hundred hours at a minimum. If it runs for 500 hours and dies, my cost is down to 60 cents per hour.

My bet is that it will run for many years to come. :B

[MinnCamper]

10 above here for a high last week.One pull the champion started.(CHAMPION)Let it run for half hr just purrrrred along small load on it.Great buy.HURRY SPRING
SEE YA.

[rpa91]

I have one a 3500 series generator ,, it sat for one year brand new out of box before I used it. I put Mobile One oil in it and gas and it cranked on first pull. For the money it is definetly a Winner....

[WaltinColo]

The thing that killed the Kipor for me was the increase in price...
When i first looked at em, a year ago, i could snag a Kipor 2000 for under $500.
Now they cost almost as much as a Honda....in which case the edge is gone, and id just buy the Honda.
That said... the reason the Champion appealed to me was it had 3500/4000 watts, and I could now run everything in my pup, including my a/c, and cost $300, while a honda/yamaha with equilviant power cost $1800.
While not as quiet, still not over powering, AND within State Park laws...
So the rise in price on the Kipors, combined with my 'discovery' of the Champion, drove me in that direction....
The reason i never considered a Honda/Yamaha was strictly price... i couldnt afford to own a $1000+ generator....

[bob11x]

Greetings to all, and thank you for a great thread. I haven't been on in quite a while, but I did read the last 20 pages of this thread, and it is really good information.
I missed some stuff while I was away; Last Spring, Kipor was sounding like a good piece on this forum, now not so much. What happened? Is it the equipment? Distribution? Service?
I have a outdoor power equipment shop, and I have been aproached to handle Kipor by Coast Dist. I notice them all over the internet, and have heard of some Gray market pieces that were not warranty-able, but nothing about any core problems.

Thanks again for a great thread - I have learned alot of very useful information.

[Katdaddy]

How are you baffling the vent for the fan? I'm also curious about the venturi idea. What do you think would be the optimal gap for this to draw the most air?

It is interesting to me, I fired up the gen last night in the gagage and it really doesn't sound to loud. Mind you this is in an area enclosed on three sides, but in a campground setting it seems to just scream!!!

[presp]

joelabq wrote:
Bobandcat's ideas for extending the exhaust will help. I'm going to start playing with that in the next couple of days.
Joel

Consider using the inertia of the exhaust gasses blowing thru an exhaust tube that is about 1-2" larger in diameter.
The column inertia of the exhaust gasses makes an effective exhaust "fan" (or extractor). This approach is also somewhat speed regulated since the more the engine is loaded the faster the exhaust exits and it is also pulling more hot air from inside the cabinet.
Additionally, it requires no additional power losses like an electric fan would.

Good luck,
Pres