3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jpkiljan]

yerlizard wrote:
Long time lurker around here. I also purchased one of the newer Power Pro 3500 from Pep boys last week. From looking at the wiring diagram, and from plugging things in, it appears to be only 13.5 amps per outlet. I'll scan the diagram later tonite. I would like it to be full power on one outlet!

This has been a fascinating thread to read!
Power Pro 3500 Wiring Diagram, New Model

Overall, I'm very happy with it. I tried to get a Champion thru parts america, but even with the 10% off code, with shipping it was not an option. No one carries it locally. Primarily this is used for back up around the house.

Here it is with a home made wheel kit, from items found in the shed.
Home made wheel kit

I did want to add this. I filled it with oil, filled it with gas, flipped the switch, started on the first pull out of the box. Very light pull to start it. I've run it aobut 10 hours, changed the oil.
Runs great

It's the same schematic on mine, Scott. I just have a different interpretation. I'll try to attach my annotated sketch to this message. It shows how I think the volt-selector switch is working in the diagram.

The way I see it is that, when switched to 120-volt operation, one side of the 15 amp sockets are fed simultaneously (and in phase) by both the brown and the red lines coming from the main coils. Only one of those has a 13-amp circuit breaker--the red one. However, the red one and its circuit breaker are only carrying half the load and the sockets will have to be drawing a total of 26 amps (2 times 13 amps) to pop that breaker, assuming that each of the main coils is delivering half the power.

Similarly, the other sides of the 15-amp socket are having their current returned to the two main coils by both the blue and white wires--of which, only the white one has a circuit breaker.

So, why you are popping a breaker when you load it up to 13.5 amps? I can only think of four possibilities:

1) The wiring diagram is more of a 'this is the way it should be' than the actual circuitry.

2) The breakers are popping because of a surge load of a motor or compressor starting.

3) One of the breakers is remaining open after it is reset. The wiring diagram indicates that both of the 15-amp sockets will still work if that happens--but only up to 13 amps. And,

4) I've got it all wrong.

It might be a week or more before I can get my new model up and running and tested under load, but I'll let you know if I can get more than 14 amps out of those combined 15-amp sockets.

--John

Here's my annotated wiring diagram sketch if get this right . . .



http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jpkiljan/detail?.dir=/8319re2&.dnm=b564re2.jpg&.src=ph



[added info] . . .

Okay, let's try that image link again . . .

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jpkiljan/detail_hires?.dir=/8319re2&.dnm=b564re2.jpg



Edited to reduce the image width - Mel

[Granted]

Sorry left out the correct info. Air conditioner is 13500 BTU, model 8000 series, 2005. Came new on a 2005 Jayco Jayfeather LGT. I think may be a Coleman Mach it doesn't really say just RV Products/ Division Aixcel INC.

[professor95]

Granted wrote:
This may be the wrong place to ask this question but here goes . We just purchased the Champion 46540 yesterday. It will run the 13500 air conditioner but the air never gets cold. Could that be the generator not producing enough amps or could it be the air conditioner? We leave for two week vacation next Friday and need to get this fixed before we leave.

Actually, you found the best place for your question.

I sounds like your compressor is not kicking in and you only have the fan working.

The 46540 has worked well with hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of RV air conditioners up to and including 15,000 BTU units.

There have been a few reports like yours indicating that the compressor is not kicking in as you described.

You did not indicate the age, model or size of your AC. It would be helpful to know those details.

Be sure you have not inadvertently left an electric water heater switch on. Sometimes this happens and there is not enough power from the generator left to start the AC.

Most everyone with this problem has found the fault to be with the AC unit, not the generator. Apparently some models of AC units do not have a starting capacitor. Manufacturers allegedly have omitted this component to reduce cost.

A starting capacitor, or "hard start" kit is easily added for less than $50.00 (do it your self). Look here. Or, if you don't mind the hassle, take the unit back to where you bought it and push hard to get them to correct the problem.

Hopefully, Mr. Wizard will also pick up on this. He worked through a similar problem a while back.

[donandmax]

Sounds like the ac. you may have a leak in the system and needs a shot of freon plus get the leak fixed.

[Granted]

This may be the wrong place to ask this question but here goes . We just purchased the Champion 46540 yesterday. It will run the 13500 air conditioner but the air never gets cold. Could that be the generator not producing enough amps or could it be the air conditioner? We leave for two week vacation next Friday and need to get this fixed before we leave.

[yerlizard]

Long time lurker around here. I also purchased one of the newer Power Pro 3500 from Pep boys last week. From looking at the wiring diagram, and from plugging things in, it appears to be only 13.5 amps per outlet. I'll scan the diagram later tonite. I would like it to be full power on one outlet!

This has been a fascinating thread to read!
Power Pro 3500 Wiring Diagram, New Model

Overall, I'm very happy with it. I tried to get a Champion thru parts america, but even with the 10% off code, with shipping it was not an option. No one carries it locally. Primarily this is used for back up around the house.

Here it is with a home made wheel kit, from items found in the shed.
Home made wheel kit

I did want to add this. I filled it with oil, filled it with gas, flipped the switch, started on the first pull out of the box. Very light pull to start it. I've run it aobut 10 hours, changed the oil.
Runs great

[jpkiljan]

Don't rush to modify the circuitry on a new Power Pro 3500.

I just purchased a new Power Pro 3500 generator from Pepboys on sale ($250 after rebate). I haven't started it up yet, let alone tested it under load, but I was thinking of making the mods called for to get a full 3000 watts out of the 120-volt sockets. This was discussed (and very well documented) in numerous earlier posts in this topic on pages 90 through 97.

However, when looking at the wiring diagram in the owner's manual, I realized that the modification has already been made at the factory. I also noticed that there have been some other changes to the model that I bought that seem to make it different to some of the earlier PP 3500's described here.

Mine has no meter nor does it have a 12-volt DC socket. It does have a switch to power EITHER the 120-volt sockets or the 240/120-volt four-pin twist-connector socket. It also has indicator lights to tell you which sockets are activated and a pair of 13 amp circuit breaker buttons to push if something doesn't light up like it should. The two 120-volt sockets are just like the wall receptacle sockets in your home and can take either polarized or non-polarized plugs or plugs with a grounding pin. And, the schematic shows that they are wired in parallel and fed off of the same wires.

The box (and manual) says it is a Power Pro model 3500D by Wen Power, 6.5 HP generator, Item #56350. It is rated for 12.5 amperes at 240 volts and at 24 amperes at 120 volts. With a dry weight of 94 pounds (I figure the wet weight would be about 20 pounds more), you definitely want the $30 optional wheel kit if you're going to be moving it around.

Nice! Perhaps someone in China has been reading the posts on this website.

If anyone wants to see the manual's schematic to see how they did it--it is not a model of clarity--let me know and I'll try adn scan it and post it here.

--John

[Granted]

Murray Auto Parts has the Champion 46540 for $299. We just picked one up today.

[ChaosAgent]

Thanks. I'll give a try.

[Spinal_Tap]

ChaosAgent wrote:
Does any one know if the 'geicoten' coupon code still works from PartsAmerica?

When I try it online the $299 price never changes in the shopping cart.

Any ideas, or am I doing something wrong?

Yes it works. I bought one yesterday and the discount isn't reflected until the very end. There is a Kragens about a mile away so I'm just going to pick it up. I bought the C46540.

[hbski]

ChaosAgent wrote:
Does any one know if the 'geicoten' coupon code still works from PartsAmerica?

When I try it online the $299 price never changes in the shopping cart.

Any ideas, or am I doing something wrong?

I believe it doesn't adjust until you actually check out. I tried an old code once and I believe it tells you it is invalid right away.

[ChaosAgent]

Does any one know if the 'geicoten' coupon code still works from PartsAmerica?

When I try it online the $299 price never changes in the shopping cart.

Any ideas, or am I doing something wrong?

[hbski]

professor95 wrote:
.....I still believe the muffler and possibly the AVR and gas tank need to be outside the enclosure.....

Or possibly, as I am contemplating, isolate the muffler as much as possible and have the cooling flow go past the muffler as it exit's the box. I'm hoping this will be sufficient to keep any significant heat from the muffler from staying in the box. I have a design semi worked out and will share once I have a chance to build it, but that won't be for a month or so.

Prof,

My design would be similar to the one you showed a little while ago, but would have the end of the alternator assembly out in the fresh air also. Additionally, it would only exit air past the muffler. That is rather than a closed compartment for the muffler, like you had, it would be open on the end facing the engine cylinder to allow the cooling air to remove the muffler heat as well. If this proves to allow too much temp increase, I will move the muffler and isolate it better.

I assume the AVR is under the vent cover on the alternator, which one of the components is it? The large metal encased one or the small square one?

[professor95]

AZJIM1 wrote:
Also, somewhere in this topic there was a comment that Champion was working on a kit to make the generators a little more quiet . . . any news on that?

In one of the campgrounds we were staying in I saw someone using the smaller Champion Generator. I know it is too small for AC use, but what does anybody know about it as far as noise, weight, and usefulness for non-AC RV use?

CPE reports that the design of the existing 3500 series of generators makes it difficult to achieve significant sound reduction by just adding a few panels. Adding enough sound reflecting/absorbing material adversely affected operating temps to the point Champion put the project "on hold".

There is at least one generator in the family of common size Chinese
built generators that has noise reduction panels in place. I have never seen one but would love the opportunity do get my paw on a unit for disection.

Many innovative enclosures have been built by forum writers. I contend my earlier posted "simple solution" remains extremely effective for almost no cost. It is made of 1/4" fan fold foam panels that are erected with the aid of duct tape and otherwise store flat under the bed mattress.

As engine and generator size goes down, so does the noise level. Keep in mind the majority of sound is NOT from the muffler on the Champion but the mechanical assembly(s). I have a 1400 Watt Kawasaki as well as the Champions. Without the need for AC, it powers Nancy's hair dryer, the microwave and will recharge the battery(s).

On a wild hair I tried a different type of sound enclosure earlier in the week. I did not make photos but will as I repeat the experiment with better materials. I set the genny in the driveway elevated on 4 cinder blocks. there was a piece of old carpet on the driveway under the blocks. I then placed a cardboard box over the genny with the open bottom of the box also resting on the blocks. This left the entire area under the genny open (8" high). I have a 3/4" NPT nipple welded on the end of my muffler - I cut a hole in the box and ran a piece of 3/4" pipe out the hole.

I started the generator and put the box over it. I ended up cutting another hole next to the muffler and one about 8" square in the top (over the gas tank) at the genny end.

Noise dropped noticeably (I did not make db measurements). I think with some adjustments and more appropriate materials this is another design to consider. I still believe the muffler and possibly the AVR and gas tank need to be outside the enclosure. I see the result in my head but need to have a left hand back to do some building. That is still a month or more away.

For those interested, give it some thought and share your comments.

[MELM]

Let's not turn this thread into a converter or charger thread, but there is some significance to those issues as charging batteries is one of the primary reasons for having the generators.

There are three basic designs of chargers: linear, ferroresonant and electronic switching. The switching converters may be single voltage or multistage.

Linear converters have low charging current output ratings, most below 15 amps with many around 6 amps. Not good for rapid battery charging.

Ferroresonant converters are single voltage chargers - the Magnatek/Parallax models are designed for 13.8 volts under light load. See below on that. They are very sensitive to low frequency input - there will be a significant reduction in charging current for any frequency below 60 Hz.

Most single voltage switching converters are (PD, Iota, Elixir, Centurion, etc.) are set for 13.6 volts; Magnetek/Parallax are 13.8 volts (with a couple of exceptions). The charging current decreases rapidly as the battery charge level, and hence the terminal voltage, increases. The multistage converters may go to the "Bulk" mode, and that has a nominal voltage over 14 volts depending on brand/model. The charge level will be higher in this mode. Only Progressive Dynamics converters have the ability to be "forced" into the bulk mode when the microprocessor doesn't choose that mode.

All of these converters actually get there charging power from a small part of the sine wave. The generator current capability at the sine wave peaks is a key factor in the charger performance. There is another thread on charging with three different generators and the charger outputs and it has some good discussion in it: Generator / Intellicharger problem - Please help. Wayne Dohnal made two posts with pictures of his oscilloscope screens with a couple of loads on his - I really hate to do this, but the last picture is worth it - EU2000i. (Note, the pictures make take a little time to load.)

The first post is of the normal output and then a 1500 watt resistive load.

The second post is of the normal output and then a PD9160A delivering 65 amps. That picture says a lot.

It would be good if we had some similar scope displays for the Champion, Elim, etc. and with some of the other converters; but this is the best I've seen so far.

I hope this helps understanding of the issues with the various converters and chargers and charging the batteries.

Mel