3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[CosmicVagabond]

professor95 wrote:

O&S wrote:
Prof95:

Maybe someone can figure out the puzzle to find a Champion 3500 120v with that 120/240v twist lock. Just try going the the NEW Ultra-Fab web site (www.ultra-fab.com) and see if you can find a dealer and if you find a dealer does he have one in stock. I understand completely what you say about the "NEW Blue Ultra-Gen Powerhouse Generators" not coming to market maybe until Mid April but they show all those fine looking YELLOW & BLACK Champions for sale. And is there no longer a 40008. Only found maybe two other posts other then you and MrWizard who posted owning that unit, if I am correct. Maybe MrWizard can give us the name of his dealer. PPL in Houston no longer lists the Champion 40008. Maybe someone can give us a online dealer.

Once again, the twist lock is rated for 120/240 volts. Just because it has a 240 volt rating does not mean it will supply 240 volts.

I think it is important to remember that UltraFab and Champion Power Equipment are totally separate companies. UltraFab is a distributor who buys Champ gensets from CPE and then resells them within their authorized dealer network. Not all UltraFab dealers will carry every product listed. Many RV dealers are affiliated with UltraFab.

CPE did not place the ad in Trailer Life. CPE most likely had no notice or input as to the ad content. This is true of all CPE dealers such as the CSK auto group, Cabelas, Tractor Supply, Home Depot, Costco Canada, and BJ's Wholesale Club.

As for the 40008, it is evident that UltraFab wanted a genset that was more identifiable with their company. No big thing, all companies do that. A change in front panel appearance, paint color and the addition of a tri-digital gauge may call for a different model number. Many companies change model numbers yearly as the products evolve. It ain't no big deal! If another dealer/distributor decides to sell the 40008, it will live on. This is why I commented earlier that "we" need to write/call/e-mail principals in the CSK auto group and tell them that we want that model. If there are enough folks requesting it, there is a good chance they will decide to carry the model.

BTW, plans call for the tri-digital gauge to be available for our older model gensets as an accessory. The tri-digital gauge gives voltage, frequency in Hz and running time. The accessory model is said to fit where the current analog volt meter is. No news on cost or availability time lines.

I have also built a very simple but effective overvoltage shut down circuit. Cost to make it is less than $10. My initial testing has gone well. I will post the details of the circuit very soon.

Now, a comment on wire size in a generator: It is current, not voltage, that necessitates a larger gauge wire. In a 240 volt generator advertised at 3500 watts, the total current will be 14.5 amps. Even with the 240 volt coil centertapped to provide dual 120 circuits, the amount of wire in feet will be approximately double what one would find in a 120V generator. 120 volt only generators typically have their coils wound in a different manner and also require a heavier gage wire to carry the increased current. We cannot always evaluate the quality of a genhead by wire size. There are numerous other variables in the genhead design that must be considered.

Prof....

How would such an upgraded meter be installed?

[professor95]

O&S wrote:
Prof95:

Maybe someone can figure out the puzzle to find a Champion 3500 120v with that 120/240v twist lock. Just try going the the NEW Ultra-Fab web site (www.ultra-fab.com) and see if you can find a dealer and if you find a dealer does he have one in stock. I understand completely what you say about the "NEW Blue Ultra-Gen Powerhouse Generators" not coming to market maybe until Mid April but they show all those fine looking YELLOW & BLACK Champions for sale. And is there no longer a 40008. Only found maybe two other posts other then you and MrWizard who posted owning that unit, if I am correct. Maybe MrWizard can give us the name of his dealer. PPL in Houston no longer lists the Champion 40008. Maybe someone can give us a online dealer.

Once again, the twist lock is rated for 120/240 volts. Just because it has a 240 volt rating does not mean it will supply 240 volts.

I think it is important to remember that UltraFab and Champion Power Equipment are totally separate companies. UltraFab is a distributor who buys Champ gensets from CPE and then resells them within their authorized dealer network. Not all UltraFab dealers will carry every product listed. Many RV dealers are affiliated with UltraFab.

CPE did not place the ad in Trailer Life. CPE most likely had no notice or input as to the ad content. This is true of all CPE dealers such as the CSK auto group, Cabelas, Tractor Supply, Home Depot, Costco Canada, and BJ's Wholesale Club.

As for the 40008, it is evident that UltraFab wanted a genset that was more identifiable with their company. No big thing, all companies do that. A change in front panel appearance, paint color and the addition of a tri-digital gauge may call for a different model number. Many companies change model numbers yearly as the products evolve. It ain't no big deal! If another dealer/distributor decides to sell the 40008, it will live on. This is why I commented earlier that "we" need to write/call/e-mail principals in the CSK auto group and tell them that we want that model. If there are enough folks requesting it, there is a good chance they will decide to carry the model.

BTW, plans call for the tri-digital gauge to be available for our older model gensets as an accessory. The tri-digital gauge gives voltage, frequency in Hz and running time. The accessory model is said to fit where the current analog volt meter is. No news on cost or availability time lines.

I have also built a very simple but effective overvoltage shut down circuit. Cost to make it is less than $10. My initial testing has gone well. I will post the details of the circuit very soon.

Now, a comment on wire size in a generator: It is current, not voltage, that necessitates a larger gauge wire. In a 240 volt generator advertised at 3500 watts, the total current will be 14.5 amps. Even with the 240 volt coil centertapped to provide dual 120 circuits, the amount of wire in feet will be approximately double what one would find in a 120V generator. 120 volt only generators typically have their coils wound in a different manner and also require a heavier gage wire to carry the increased current. We cannot always evaluate the quality of a genhead by wire size. There are numerous other variables in the genhead design that must be considered.

[professor95]

Hemiallen wrote:
Is thye Kragen/ shuck's Champion # C46540 400/3500 model the good one to get? I am having trouble keeping track of these multiple model #'s. I see Cabel;a's has them for $299, but if they need to be returned they go directly to the factory. I may check out the local Kragen tonight.

Champion prefers that generators under factory warranty NOT be returned to the California facility (factory is in China). If you have a problem that is covered by the warranty, call their Tech Service department. If you are mechanically inclined, they will send you parts if the problem can be identified over the phone. Otherwise, they usually hook you up with someone in your area who repairs small engines and generators.

[HedoTravelers]

Hemiallen wrote:
Is thye Kragen/ shuck's Champion # C46540 400/3500 model the good one to get? I am having trouble keeping track of these multiple model #'s. I see Cabel;a's has them for $299, but if they need to be returned they go directly to the factory. I may check out the local Kragen tonight.

Allen

Tractor Supply has them for $289 and they accept returns.
Maybe there is one near you? (Check here) I am getting that same model there when it comes back in stock. (They only keep one in stock apparently)

[Hemiallen]

Is thye Kragen/ shuck's Champion # C46540 400/3500 model the good one to get? I am having trouble keeping track of these multiple model #'s. I see Cabel;a's has them for $299, but if they need to be returned they go directly to the factory. I may check out the local Kragen tonight.

For remote boondocking, I hate to spend $2k on a Yamaha 2000seb or Honda 3000si if I only use it 2x a year in the summer, or at home if the power goes out. I think I could live with muffling a 68 db unit, or running a long cord of 10ga wire to reduce the sound, and if it gets so hot I need the A/C, I won't be outside to hear it anyway....

Thanks for any help/ suggestions

Allen

[Old___Slow]

Prof95:

Maybe someone can figure out the puzzle to find a Champion 3500 120v with that 120/240v twist lock. Just try going the the NEW Ultra-Fab web site (www.ultra-fab.com) and see if you can find a dealer and if you find a dealer does he have one in stock. I understand completely what you say about the "NEW Blue Ultra-Gen Powerhouse Generators" not coming to market maybe until Mid April but they show all those fine looking YELLOW & BLACK Champions for sale. And is there no longer a 40008. Only found maybe two other posts other then you and MrWizard who posted owning that unit, if I am correct. Maybe MrWizard can give us the name of his dealer. PPL in Houston no longer lists the Champion 40008. Maybe someone can give us a online dealer.

[walkeraw]

HedoTravelers wrote:
Where did you source the transfer switch walkeraw?
Tri-fuel eh? I really liked the LP gas powered genny's but all the portables were pretty small for my needs. It would be nice to use the same fuel as the TT so as not to carry gasoline with us too.

I ordered the switch online from the Gen-Tran website. "Vintage" model 30116V...more than adequate and MUCH cheaper than some of their "newer" offerings (I cannot really see much difference, since the internal components are all the same). My main objective was for home backup, plus the natural gas line is very convenient for access. There are conversion kits available ($$$), but it seems that anyone with a smidgeon of handy man skills could do it themselves. That is why I'm looking around for a good price on an on demand regulator.

[HedoTravelers]

Where did you source the transfer switch walkeraw?
Tri-fuel eh? I really liked the LP gas powered genny's but all the portables were pretty small for my needs. It would be nice to use the same fuel as the TT so as not to carry gasoline with us too.

[Old___Slow]

Prof95:

Thanks for the clarification On the Champion 3500. So NO new C46540 or it's like kind is offered through Ultra-fab. Old & Slow just could not reason a price increase of that differential. About the Generator Guy, he had stated and the statement might have been deleted that he found the wiring in the C46540 to be of light gauge. The reference to the DuroPower and the C46540 wiring in the genhead is my own observation.. I do not believe for a New York second that Ultra-Fab would attempt to dupe us RV folks now that you have assured us as to what they are saying is true. Your assessment is importent. Anyway, I like my little YELLOW & BLACK genny even thought it's not the only kid on the block. My new enclosure for the C46540 stock frame with a slight mod I think you will appreciate. I got inspiration from Bob (bobandcat) posting a picture right here on this thread. He made a simple cutting of the frame standards. I did the same and raised the fuel tank 6" by placing 1/2" pipe inside the four standards that support the fuel tank. By raising the fuel tank 6" this was the right height to add a really neat enclosure below the fuel tank. Hope to reach 52/55 DbA. The sound panels are a work in progress. May try later your idea of Hardie Backer Board for the outside. Using 1/2" MDF Fiberboard at present. Sound lowering is a universal need for every Genset owner, I do believe. I'm anxious to see what new ideas will be developed from future posts.

Floyd
O&S

[walkeraw]

This is just an update on my complete ($500) camping/rv/home backup generator setup.
$304/shipped C46540
$126 shipped Gen-Tran "vintage" 6 circuit 3750 watt xfer switch (circuitry could be modified internally very easily; componentry very beefy and well laid out); can easily handle larger generator); reasonable replacement parts are available.
$34 30' RV 30a cord from Wally-World
$36 DIY 2' pigtail (RV male $12 /L5-30 female $24, 2' 10/3 cable $0) vs. Gen-Tran's version ($45 plus shipping)
$0 DIY wheelkit (had extra lawnmower wheels/axles laying around).

I'm very happy with this setup. It handles everything (fridge, furnace, lights, tv's, computers, misc. clocks/phones/etc.) all at once (and more i.e. small window ac) when acting as home backup power. My three computers, monitors, and laser printer never hiccuped at all; so the "electrical cleanliness" appears to be ok. I haven't had any problems at all. I'm looking forward to getting several years use out of this puppy!

Now, I'm just waiting on more of y'alls new and improved sound abatement enclosures within/on the stock C46540 frame....and doing a little research on converting to tri-fuel.

Thanks to everyone for this great thread! Please keep it going!

[HedoTravelers]

Here are the Champion sites specs.
It does in fact say "AC Load 120V" where as the C46540 says "AC Load 120/240V "

[professor95]

O&S wrote:
Prof95:

The Ultra-Gen 3500 they are selling @ $459 states it is 120/240v Not a 120v only you state above. The New model 3500 by Ultra-Gen must then be the same as the C46540 So there is nothing New coming with the BLUE Ultra-Gen Powerhouse Generators? Just the price.

No, the specs are confusing. It has a 30 amp 120/240 volt rated twistlock outlet - but it does not provide 240 volts. It is a single voltage unit.


Floyd, no one is trying to dupe anyone in the Ultra-Fab add. What they say is true.

In comparing windings between two different genheads, one needs to know what voltages are being generated. Does the DuroPower also produce 240 volts and 12VDC?

BTW, where is the post where Generator Guy said the wire in the Champion genheads was a smaller gauge than the DuroPower? I can't seem to find that one.

[bbrown93647]

your trailer or MH is one large 'portable electric appliance' attached to a portable power unit

there are some very detailed posts, spelling all this out , along with counter views,

safety is my number one concern and unbonded is the safest way. it keeps your RV frame out of the electrical circuit

buy a good portable GFI to put inbetween the generator and the RV power cord
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Mr Wizard:
Thank you for the info- Do you have any recommendations for a particular GFI (brand/source, etc) suitable for the Champion C46540?

[Old___Slow]

Well it sounds like the Generator-Guy was correct when he said then Champion C46540 had very light gage wiring in the generator head. I have a DuroPower DP 3500EC and when I pulled the gen caps on the two units sitting side by side I could clearly see the C46540 had smaller wiring. Then later I changed out the C46540 from my MH and replaced it with the DuroPower. A have a clamp on Digital Meter. I hung the Meter on the Hot (Black) wire from the DuroPower and pushed in the Peak Hold button. I have a 300/500w converter/batt chg in line and a All Electric Fridge with a 12a Compressor that was running when I turned on the 13,500 btu A/C on high. When I checked the Meter it read 61.9a now I assume this was for a m/second peak so no breakers were opened. Will a 3500w Champion do this, I don't know. I sent a picture of the reading to Brad and Prof. Anyway Prof has identified the slick advertising trick of calling a AVR & Circuit Breakers a new "Electronic Circuit Protection" item. Always something to dupe us, like this ad in TL of a, I guess, rebranded or retread maybe Champion Blue wonder.

Bobandcat, you lead the way with the use of your C46535 and a project still in progress that has been a real inspiration. Now I want to follow your lead with a Cobra 2550 inverter. That will totally ease my mind in the use of my LCD Monitor HDTV. Inverters are the wave of the future. This thread keeps us well informed with all things related to power for our needs. All thanks to our Professor95 and his continued willing to share the wealth of knowledge he has gained in his lifetime. We can credit the Prof for giving his time and efforts free, just for the asking.

Floyd

[bobandcat]

If I owned a JD or other off brand Chinese genset, I would try to use Champion parts to fix it.

When I exchanged some e-mails with Paul at Champion regarding doing a conversion of my 46535 to a 46540, he was very helpful. He also told me that the 46535 had higher capacity windings than the 46540 which is why it has one 20 amp and one 15 amp circuit.

One last note. When I took apart my Cobra 2550 inverter, all of the outlets were on one circuit. I will now be shore, generator and inverter powered.