3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
If I understand correctly, we should expect a higher surge (peak) ratio from a brush type genny (Champion)over a brushless (Elim).

Well, yes, that's my take. But remember that this whole surge thing started in response to an agressive salesman's comments.

That said, my ELM3000 starts my 15K BTU air conditioner just as well as my Champ. In a marginal situation, I believe the brush type would win out. But (always a but....) there are other variables and factors than can negate one advantage over the other.

In reality, it is all sort of a moot point that niether one of us need to spend any time worrying about. The only real benefit of my response would be a comeback to a salesman who might make some unsupported claim about surge capacity to close a deal.

Or, is it possible to add enough capacitor energy to a brushless unit for equal value?

Don't go adding capacitor energy to any AC generator. "IF" the motor you are trying to start is the type that will allow a start capacitor, sure - go for it AT THE MOTOR, not the genny.

[professor95]

Dickson Sr. wrote:
I bought an Duropwer DP3600Ei 3600W Digital Inverter Generator with Elec. Start.

Anybody have any experiences with this line?

Old and Slow is part of the DCC group (sorry, Floyd, just couldn't resist) 🙂

Seriously, I doubt that there is anyone on this forum more familiar with DuroPower than Floyd. He can tell you about the company and product line.

As for the inverter technology for this brand, I for one would really like to learn what you discover about performance and durability of this unit. Not too much is known here - please share your findings.

[professor95]

cmg3500 wrote:
I have a WEN POWER PRO 3500.I have gas in it thats pretty old 1 year or so(with STABIL in it).I am guessing I need to drain it & replace it with fresh fuel with stabil.anyone have any tricks on draining the gas?like removing the little screen on the petcock & draining from there?or removing the whole tank,& dumping back through the fill opening?
Just wondering what is the easiest was to drain the fuel.it is empty from the petcock to the carbeurator,as I run the gas out of the carb. whenever I shut the engine down.
Thanks for any ideas,

Taking the gas tank off and dumping from the top doesn't work too well. The tank opening has a slosh prevention device that makes top dumping a mess.

The best, and e*x*t*r*e*m*e*l*y slow method is to just disconnect the fuel line and let it drain into a gas can. It might take an hour or more - be patient! And, yes, removing the petcock does make it a little faster, but not by much.

[professor95]

LowRider wrote:
bought a Champion. When I filled the oil it flowed back about half (oil all over my patio)? Checked the fill. looked OK. Won't start. Back to Home Depot.

If you have not yet returned it, try this:

The low oil sender in many of these engines "gets stuck", especially when new and after shipping.

Disconnect the yellow wire going to the sender unit on the lower half of the engine block - looking on from the front. It has a plug connection and just pulls apart. If the engine starts, your problem is the sender.

Let the engine run and the oil warm, the sender float should free up. Reconnect the wire and hopefully your problem is gone.

[Dickson_Sr_]

I bought an Duropwer DP3600Ei 3600W Digital Inverter Generator with Elec. Start.

Anybody have any experiences with this line?

[Old___Slow]

Prof95:

No need to say again, I'm a novice. I want to get this straight. If I understand correctly, we should expect a higher surge (peak) ratio from a brush type genny (Champion)over a brushless (Elim). Or, is it possible to add enough capacitor energy to a brushless unit for equal value?

[LowRyter]

bought a Champion. When I filled the oil it flowed back about half (oil all over my patio)? Checked the fill. looked OK. Won't start. Back to Home Depot.

[cmg3500]

I have a WEN POWER PRO 3500.I have gas in it thats pretty old 1 year or so(with STABIL in it).I am guessing I need to drain it & replace it with fresh fuel with stabil.anyone have any tricks on draining the gas?like removing the little screen on the petcock & draining from there?or removing the whole tank,& dumping back through the fill opening?
Just wondering what is the easiest was to drain the fuel.it is empty from the petcock to the carbeurator,as I run the gas out of the carb. whenever I shut the engine down.
Thanks for any ideas,

[professor95]

O&S wrote:
OH, one more. Isn't there rotating mass in both the brush and brushless gennys.

Yes, but if you read back through my answer post, you will note that ONLY in the brush type are the two inductors (masses) physically connected to form one complete and larger inductor.

On inverters - do you perhaps have a "regular" inverter? You know, one you connect to a battery to change DC to AC?

If so, have you ever noticed the massive spark that occurs when you connect the inverter to a batttery, even when the inverter is off? How about disconnecting the battery to the inverter when the inverter is running a light load, like a small 110V radio? Does the radio cut off instantally or perhaps continue to work for a few seconds?

Lots of questions..... but they are all answers as well. The "inverters" store energy in (a) capacitor(s) for rapid release when a surge is needed. The capacitor charges when you connect the inverter to the battery and continues to supply power for an interval after the battery is removed. It also gives that extra kick of energy we call a surge.

Inductors, capacitors and the combination of the two used together are amazing little devices. Who would think a coil of wire could store energy in an invisible field in the air around the coil? Who would have thought we could collect electrons for later release by placing a piece of wax paper between two pieces of tin foil?

Speaking of inverters - we are having a thunder storm. The power just went out and the UPS kicked in. Gotta go before the capacitors discharge!

It's MAGIC, I tell you, MAGIC!

[Old___Slow]

ying yang, apples and oranges, double speak, rotating mass we get it all right here on this thread and soon 500,000 visits, guess this is about as good as 'it' gets. One question for the PROS. Does a inverter genny have no rotating mass as reserve kick to start a A/C. One point mentioned in another post was the cost, if failure, to replace the module of the inverter. OH, one more. Isn't there rotating mass in both the brush and brushless gennys.

[boucher1]

Professor95

I've read your explanation, and now I understand advantages of both gensets with or without brushes.

I'm going to get ying on one hand or yang on the other by sales people.



Oldfordman

It's 200hrs not 2000hrs. And I agree with you.

Oh yes, I've always been intrigued by some sales people talking twice as much as they listen. I wish that they would do the reverse, listen twice as much (2 ears) and talk half the time (1 mouth).

Roger;)

[Old___Slow]

I came to RV.NET and 3000w Chinese Gensets info' for one reason and one reason only. I own a HM purchased used with only 14,500 miles and a OEM factory genset with 261 hours on the meter. The genset was DOA. A long story short, the OEM genset needed $2300 in repairs. My thinking was, look for a less expensive replacement. I found that unit in the Champion C46540 @ $340 delivered to my door. Then I set out on a Mission to prove a Chinese genny could replace the big beast installed at the factory. It was a long road in finding the proper way to use a C'Honda/Chinese genset successfully. After purchasing the C46540 I found I needed a Electric Start unit. On the hunt I went. The Champion 40008 was located at a local RV Dealership. The price was more than I wanted to pay. So a search began. First Ebad. No deal.
Then DuroPower and bingo, a one day deal and a DP3500EC @ $329 was delivered to my door. That unit is installed in the retrofitted factory compartment of my MH. Mission partly complete, just need a remote control.

Now here is my issue. Champion is a US Company with their own factory in China, as the story goes. To stay ahead of the game, this is my thinking, they need to meet the competition. RV folks need a less expensive genset with electric start and remote control that will compare with the units made in Japan. And, a better AVR. And, lower noise factor. Is that to much to expect? :@ Prof95, stated Champion needs to hear from us.

[Oldfordman]

boucher1 wrote:
Professor95

I’ve been away from this site for about 2 years. During that time I’ve purchased a Chinese Genset, put 200hrs of usage and had no problems.

The other day a seller of Japanese Genset told a friend that his units were superior to other similar manufacturers of Japanese Genset. He used the following argument: that his units had a higher Max Peak Wattage versus Rated Wattage.

He said that his units were better suited for RV AC units and other motors that have a high initial wattage demand on start-up.
I have to admit that I did not expect this approach. He also mentioned that they had back up data on these facts which of course he could not produce.

My questions are:
Does the his comments make any sense? Why or why not?
In other words, could there be such differences between Max versus Rated? If so, how and if not, why?
Any clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks

Roger:)

If your generator has performed well for you over the 2,000 hours does it really matter what they claim???????

[professor95]

boucher1 wrote:
Professor95

I’ve been away from this site for about 2 years. During that time I’ve purchased a Chinese Genset, put 200hrs of usage and had no problems.

The other day a seller of Japanese Genset told a friend that his units were superior to other similar manufacturers of Japanese Genset. He used the following argument: that his units had a higher Max Peak Wattage versus Rated Wattage.

He said that his units were better suited for RV AC units and other motors that have a high initial wattage demand on start-up.
I have to admit that I did not expect this approach. He also mentioned that they had back up data on these facts which of course he could not produce.

My questions are:
Does the his comments make any sense? Why or why not?
In other words, could there be such differences between Max versus Rated? If so, how and if not, why?
Any clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks

Roger

Welcome back, Roger. Next time don't stay away so long! 🙂

There is a simple experiment that I once did with my students to demonstrate how an inductance can store and release energy. If you will, for a moment, picture a NE2 neon gas filled lamp. These were quite common as indicators until LED's came along. Anyway, it takes right at 77 volts to fire the gas in the neon lamp and produce that neat orange glow.

I would take a 9V transistor radio battery and connect it to the neon lamp leads. Of course, the lamp would not light.

Then, I would take an inductor - about the size of a small power transformer - and connect the two leads from the inductor to the neon lamp leads and then attach the 9V battery. Once again, nothing happened. But, when I disconnected the battery, the neon light flashed!

Now, how did that happen?

Well, when DC was connected to the inductor, it first opposed the flow of current, then as the external electromagnetic field built up, current would again flow through the inductor. But, when the battery was disconnected from the inductor all of the energy stored in the external field around the inductor would immediately collapse back into the inductor and there would be a very short, but significantly high, spike of voltage that would easily light the neon lamp.

An automobile ignition coil works in a similar manner since the "coil" is indeed an inductor.

In a simple generator, a magnet is spun by an engine inside a coil of wire (or the other way around). This produces electricity. Many newer model generators only have magnets strong enough to get the process started, but in reality could produce very little power because the magnets are weak. These generators use this inital small permanent magnetic field to energize a larger electromagnetic field which in turn makes more power which in turn can be used to make the electromagnetic field stronger and make more power........ anyway, I think you get the picture.

A generator of the type above can store an awesome amount of energy in its "flux field" (no kidding!) for release when the demand for power exceeds that which is "normally" created by the spinning armature. The interval is really short, but it doesn't take too long to give a motor in an A/C compressor a good kick.

Typically, Chinese gensets with "brush-less" technology cannot give a sudden surge of power equal to a genset that uses slip rings (or brushes).

I imagine that is what the guy was talking about, but using it as a selling point with no real understanding.

Example #1: My JD built ELM3000 has no brushes. It excites the armature through inductive coupling.

Example #2: My Champion uses a brush assembly. It directs energy from the stator to the armature through this brush assembly (also called a slip ring). This creates a much larger, mechanically connected inductor.

Of the two, the brush style generator has a higher surge, peak, reserve or starting wattage. The Wen PowerPro also uses a brush assembly and from what O&S shares, the DuroPower does as well.

Of course, the flip side of the selling point is that the brush-less generators have few contact parts to wear out or fail and generally have less likelyhood of "hash" since there are no brushes to arc and produce RF energy.

[5rFozz]

No need to drain, blow or anything. Just put some Stabil in the gas can you use to fil your genny, lawnmower, etc. Stuff works great. My genny starts on the first pull everytime, even after several months of storage.