3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[77charger]

MrWizard wrote:
The pulsing problem can be caused by a broken throttle tension spring on the throttle its real long but real fine & real weak

Look to see if its missing

There should be 2 springs they fasten at different points

1 shorter stronger one, and the really fine throttle tension spring

I have had that one come off on one end and my gen ran like******couldnt take any load whatsoever.It all started when i got some sand inside the carb and the throttle butterfly got stuck.Ever since i use grease around the filter as well as filter oil on the filter never a problem again.

[MrWizard]

un hook the long tension spring, see if the problem gets worse, also try moving it to the next notch on the arm to make it tighter. clean and oil around the governor arm at the top of the engine, if thats sticky or stiff it can lead to surging problems

[tubular031]

Both springs are there and hooked up as they should be.

I am thinking its something to do with the part that controls the motor speed. I assume there is something in there that watches the RPMs and tells it to speed up or slow down to keep the right speed. It seems like it thinks its going too fast so it tells the motor to slow down. then it thinks its too slow so it speeds up aka pulse. On our motor controls there is a POT for adjusting how fast to adjust, if you turn it too high, the motor does the exact same thing as my champ is doing. Same thing when you tune a servo system.

If I pull the arm off the carb and work the throttle my self the engine runs fine.It idles fine and accelerates smoothly. and it also over revs too...oops!

I am going to call champ again and get a warranty claim going. unless you guys can think of something else to try.

[MrWizard]

The pulsing problem can be caused by a broken throttle tension spring on the throttle its real long but real fine & real weak

Look to see if its missing

There should be 2 springs they fasten at different points

1 shorter stronger one, and the really fine throttle tension spring

[77charger]

One thing i do to my dirtbikes and even generator is i leave the gas on when i store them in my garage.Fuel in the bowls cant hurt and keeps the gas from drying out.Ones i know who shut the gas valves off for long periods are the ones who usually have problems starting their bikes up after sitting with dry fuel bowls.

i only turn them off during transport.if you are worried about leaving them on the whole time go into garage every other week and open the valve for a few seconds to fill the carb up then turn it off.

[tubular031]

Good stuff!

I took the carb apart and cleaned it really well. There was hardly any gunk in the bowel and on the jet. Put it all back together and same thing. So I pulled off the rod that controls the throttle and was able to get it to run just fine controlling the speed myself. Hooked the rod back up and it pluses. Almost like a 2 cylinder motor that is missing one cylinder

Guess Ill call champ again and see about getting looked at by the warranty place.

[professor95]

tubular031 wrote:

Why is it that my lawnmower and lawn tractor can sit for 4 or more months in the shed during the winter and fire up fine in the spring? The first year I put some stabil in there but am almost sure it did not get any this past winter. ( I know BAD BAD BAD!! life threw a MAJOR b-slap at us right around that time 😞 ) is it just because of the design of the carb/float/jet?

The best answer I can give is that it is like shooting craps. While the basic principles tell us the jets should gum up, some - or perhaps many - manage to beat the law of averages.

Consider the following in rationalizing why.

An interesting experiment to try sometime is to put 3-4 ounces of gasoline in an OPEN glass jar. Set it outside, well away from children and ignition sources, and allow the gasoline to completely evaporate from the jar.

One would like to think that after the gas evaporated the inside of the jar would be crystal clear. But, it will have a residue on the sides and bottom that is moderately sticky.

For even a greater visual experience try placing some gasoline that has oil mixed in, as you would use in a 2-cycle engine. The residue left behind is a lot like honey.

Many people are surprised to learn that gasoline can “rot”. Remember, it is an organic compound and actually supports certain strains of bacteria. It is possible for gasoline to decompose or go bad in as little as one month – especially when stored at high temperatures. Once decomposition starts, the compounds that make up gasoline will separate. Added ethanol will begin to gel and a gum or tar like substance settles to the bottom of the container. Gas companies often add detergents and stabilizers to stall this process, but it eventually happens to all stored gas. Fuel stabilizers are actually stronger or concentrated forms of these additives. But gas with stabilizers will also even go “bad” – it just takes longer.

Additionally, not all gasoline is well filtered. Think about the tankers that transport gas, the underground tanks where it is stored and the container you eventually transfer gas into. All of these containers store airborne contaminants like dust, pollen and even insects. Over time the build up of “stuff” can be considerable. While some fueling stations have filters at the gas pumps, others do not. It is easy to transfer dirty fuel.

[tubular031]

professor95 wrote:


The float bowl will need to be removed and cleaner sprayed up into the jet orifice (wear safety goggles!!!!). You may even need to unscrew the jet from the carb body to get it clean.

Thanks for the input professor! I called champ this morning and they told me the same thing. I just wanted to make sure with champ that if I start to pull things apart, it will not mess with the warranty since its only a few months old.

Why is it that my lawnmower and lawn tractor can sit for 4 or more months in the shed during the winter and fire up fine in the spring? The first year I put some stabil in there but am almost sure it did not get any this past winter. ( I know BAD BAD BAD!! life threw a MAJOR b-slap at us right around that time 😞 ) is it just because of the design of the carb/float/jet?

[professor95]

tubular031 wrote:
I pulled my little champ out of the garage to use tonight . Brought my trailer home from the shop and wanted to have some ac while we clean it up. Started it up and it fired on the first pull but was pulsing. After about 5 minutes it keeps pulsing. It will not start the ac and it just boggs down big time when I try to start it. It almost smells like its running rich. When I put it away last time I shut off the fuel valve off. It was sitting in the garage for about 6 weeks.

Did the gas go bad? The jets in the carb gummed up? Not sure where to start other then to pull the intake and shoot a bunch of carb cleaner down there and see what happens? It only has about 10 hours of use on it so far.

The float bowl on these engines has a drain plug. Once the petcock is turned off you can unscrew the plug to drain any remaining gas out of the float bowl.

Restrictions that cause rough or no run conditions are most often found in the tiny openings of the main jet. Squirting carb cleaner into the carburetor intake will do nothing to clean out this jet.

The float bowl will need to be removed and cleaner sprayed up into the jet orifice (wear safety goggles!!!!). You may even need to unscrew the jet from the carb body to get it clean.

Chemicals like the Wiz mentioned will dissolve tars and gums that can often build up in carburetor fuel systems. You usually need to run a few gallons of treated fuel through the system for it to work. I like Sea Foam more as a preventive measure than a cure.

The carbs are easy to remove. If this is a common problem or one you are worried about, buy a spare carb for about $40 so you can just swap it out in the event of a restriction getting into the main jet so you do not have extended down time.

The photos below from my previously posted picture files show the drain plug on the float bowl and internal parts of the float bowl and main jet. Disregard the yellow arrow pointing to the adjustable jet in the photo - it is NOT the drain plug. The drain plug is in the lower right of the photo sticking out from the float bowl at an angle.

[professor95]

N9WOS wrote:
Here is a new type of generator head for china gens.

I have run across a few of these on-line from China. They are as the manufacturer stated very efficient. One of the comments I have often made on this thread is that a significant portion of the kenetic energy created by the engine on the conventional 3,000 Watt Chinese genset is used to create the oposing magnetic field needed to produce power. Inverter gensets are a little more efficient since they use 3 phase alternators to provide power to the inverter circuits.

But, alas, it is doubtful that we will see one of the gensets you posted in the USA any time soon. In order to meet the new EPA requirements the company you linked to would need to post a $5,000,000 dollar bond against environmental emissions faults for the next five years! Such a bond can get pretty expensive at a security rate of 10% to 25% of the bond's value - especially over five years!

Companies like Honda, Briggs, Yamaha, Kohler, etc. that have at least five years with no claims are exempt from the bond. It is just the new guys that have to post it.

It doesn't take a degree in Rocket Science to read betwen the lines and see that this is just another way big corporations can lobby to create rules that can keep the little guy or competition out. In the end, we pay for it!

Aside from the EPA bond, about the only way we could see such a generator would be if an existing company with EPA certification were to use the respective genhead on a certified engine. Northern Tools does this alot - they put Honda engines on Chinese frames and genheads under the NorthStar name.

[N9WOS]

Here is a new type of generator head for china gens.

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewyGYnxkmvOJsN/Permanent-Magnet-Generator-Sets....

Rare Earth Permanent Magnet Generator:
1, Compact Structure, Small Bulk, The weight is 30% lighter than the regular.
2, Without Field Winding, Exciter, AVR, brush. etc. High reliability. Maintenance-free, without Electromagnetism disturn. simply to operate. it's the main advantage than the regular generator.
3, With the same power, double efficiency than the regulars.
4, power factor. can reach 0.98.
5, Can save gasoline more than 20% than the regular. which has more important meaning in nowaday's world.
6, Almost perfect Waveform.
7, Life time can reach ten years.

HS Code: 85013200
Trademark: Rano
Origin: China
Packing: CTN
Min. Order: NEG
Transportation: FOB/CFR/CIF
Company: Shanghai Roco Magnetics Co., Ltd.

Yes you heard that right. Permanent magnet setup. Of course it can’t have an AVR. But it doesn’t have any field coils or anything. So there is nothing to break in that department. Being PM, it should be able to stand capacitive reactance with no problem, unlike electrically powered excitation systems. Pure sine wave without brushes.


There is one type of excitation system I haven’t seen on any china generators. Brush type, non AVR. The type with rotating field, and a LV DC winding on the stator that feeds a rectifier and capacitor to feed DC to the field. It puts out a high enough voltage for the head to reach magnetic saturation, which is It’s normal operating point. It is a relatively common system with colemans and the like. I have seen capacitor excited brushless, and AVR brush type, but never any non AVR brush type generator heads on china genneys. It’s exactly like an AVR head but with just a simple diode and capacitor to feed DC to the field, and the proper number of turns to achieve the right voltage output.

The design has the benefit of pure sine wave output like the AVR gensets. No suppressed voltage peaks resulting from capacitive pumping causing stator saturation, at 90 and 270 degrees on brushless gensets. And with no problems from AVRs.

It is a design that was common on American gensets but I haven’t seen a single Chinese unit with that setup.

The voltage regulation is similar to the brushles units. It operates at saturation so voltage is determined by number of turns in the output windings. Voltage will go up or down proportionally with speed. So an engine with tighter govern control will produce a more stable output voltage.


And now comes a some modification ideas.

You could turn an AVR head into a non AVR saturation limited head by taking the AVR out and putting in a simple bridge diode/capacitor setup to feed the field coil. You would have to play with the number of stator turns on the winding that supplies it to get the field to the saturation level, but not push the voltage high enough that it melts the field windings. Then you would have to pull a specific number of turns off the 120V output windings to get the proper 120V.

You will have basically turned an AVR head, into a brush type, non AVR head.

Another interesting idea that has accrued to me. Wind the stator with a heavy gauge three phase winding, with enough turns to get 15 VDC out of a proper 3 phase rectifier. Have a low current single phase winding to power the field coil at 40 to 60VDC and use the 15VDC high current output to charge batteries. If you modified the generator properly, you could get around 200A of battery charging ability out of a 3KW generator. If you was real fancy, you could rewind the field (armature) with heaver wire so it would be able to obtain full output voltage with a field drive a little under 12V. That would allow you to use a normal automotive regulator to regulate the voltage output of the generator.


The only type of gen head I am sure I won’t see on a cheap china genny is like the ones on the winco and old homelite that I have worked with. The type with the output windings on the armature. With the solid cast stator with big pole pieces. They are built like a tank.

[MikeMike]

I would say the solution is -as you have said stabil in the tank and run it till the mixed fuel is in the carb-----the problem is with the new fuel blends and the way they evaporate and leave residue--have had many problems with Suzuki sportbikes because of this--let them sit a month and your lucky if you don't have to take 4 carbs apart and clean them-my Harley will do the same after sitting 1 week ,sold a Honda sportbike 2 weeks ago to a neighbor,stored it 21 years ago with a full tank of gas,he told me last week he drained the tank and had never seen a gas tank that clean (like new) I told him I wanted that old 95 octane gas :):):)-since it was a pure product not mixed with alcohol---my nose is attuned to good fuel the way some people like to smell brandy or wine 😉 another problem with alcohol blended gas ,the alcohol absorbs moisture and as it evaporates leaves water in its place --which corrodes and rust the internal carb parts,I hate alcohol blended gas as much as I do mutual fund brokers and alot of politicians

[regal5575]

MrWizard wrote:
try the carb cleaner and some 'sea foam' in the gas tank

always run the carb dry, and if your going to store it with fuel in the tank use 'sea foam' or some 'stabil' in the gas

Running the carb dry was what I always tried to do for the first five years. I would keep it running until it ran out of gas and then restart it and jiggle the choke and throttle until I completely ran it dry. Yet every year I would have to take the carb apart on my snowblower and clean it to get it to run without pulsing.

And now for the last 25 years I just leave gas in the tank and put Stabil in it. And I run the engine and leave Stabilized gas in the carb. At the beginning of the next season the motor starts and runs just fine.

My theory on why this works is because running the carb dry never really runs the carb completely dry. And the gas that is left will eventually evaporate and leave residue. If the tank is left with stabilized gas in it the carb stays wet and doesn't leave any residue.

I know it flies in the face of what we have been told by the experts but it seems to work with my lawnmowers, snowblower and boat.

JerryK

[Jer_Ger]

That reminds me, a couple weeks ago, I started up my Champ and it started pulseing also. When I happened to look at the volts meter, it was only showing 30 volts. I figured after hearing about the AVR's going bad, that was what was going on, so I shut it down, figuring I was going the have to do without it for this trip. The next day, I thought I would take a quick look at it to see if that was the problem, but low and behold, it started, ran smooth AND showed 120 volts! Haven't had any problems with it since. Go figure, I don't have a clue what happened....Jerry

[MrWizard]

try the carb cleaner and some 'sea foam' in the gas tank

always run the carb dry, and if your going to store it with fuel in the tank use 'sea foam' or some 'stabil' in the gas