3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Happy_Waver]

I picked up my Champion 3000/3500 at Costco here in Canada. If you keep any eye open on their coupons you can get a good deal. Not only was it on sale but they gave me another 75 bucks off at the door

[professor95]

snarfattack wrote:

I just want to make sure readers will understand the risks of using two wires for one circuit, and when that risk is acceptable.

Josh

I'm curious. Are you also a licensed electrician and/or EE? Or perhaps just a safety conscious individual?

[snarfattack]

professor95 wrote:
I totally agree with you that a single larger gauge wire is more reliable. But, we are looking at a starter motor on a generator, not a 120 volt AC line or a DC line that is at a 100% duty cycle. If one only has a spool of #12 or #10 THHN stranded wire it is perfectly OK to parallel them to compensate for the resistance the current will need to overcome without a voltage drop greater than 2%.

I just want to make sure readers will understand the risks of using two wires for one circuit, and when that risk is acceptable.

Josh

[professor95]

Kragen or any of the former stores in the CSK auto group are now owned by O'Rileys. They no longer carry the Champion unless it is left over stock. It is rumored that Jiang Dong gave them a million dollars of inventory up front to switch to their brand.

Champion 3,000 watt class generators "may" be found at Lowe's, Home Depot, Cabelas, NAPA, Tractor Supply and on Amazon.com Not all store locations stock the Champion.

Right now TSC is one of the better retail sources for Champion.

[professor95]

snarfattack wrote:

professor95 wrote:
10 gauge copper wires are good for running to the starter for a distance of 20 feet. You can go longer but the voltage drop at the 25 amp cranking current begins to become a consideration. Best to parallel twin #10 or even #12 wires after 20 feet unless you want to run larger gauge #8 or #6.

It is much safer to run a single, larger gauge wire. What happens if one of your two wires is cut or the connection goes bad? It will cause damage to components and the remaining wire due to voltage drop and over-heating. Pairing two small gauge wires is not the same concept as stranded wire. Stick with a single large gauge wire that when it fails, it fails and you will know it.

Josh

Josh,

I totally agree with you that a single larger gauge wire is more reliable. But, we are looking at a starter motor on a generator, not a 120 volt AC line or a DC line that is at a 100% duty cycle. If one only has a spool of #12 or #10 THHN stranded wire it is perfectly OK to parallel them to compensate for the resistance the current will need to overcome without a voltage drop greater than 2%.

[jlaustin]

gasser9 wrote:
John as for your line size question you must remember that the line from the mixer to the "0" PRESSURE regulator is primarily a vacuum line! There was not enough vaccum at "cold start" to supply enough fuel for stareting & initial run. It is a concept that messes with mechanics mind all the time. It is what makes LPG carburation so difficult to diagnose for mechanics with carburator & injector experiance! Vaccum Vaccum
Dennis

Please explain a little more.

Are you saying that

1) Line size doesn't matter, or

2) Since you want more vacuum it would seems a smaller line would pull a higher vacuum quicker (less volume in the line)? IF this is true, I would assume you wouldn't want the line's i.d. any smaller than the carb orifice (3/16" in my case)?

By the way - another question! In my initial installation, the regulator was in a vertical plane, but rotated with the outlet at about 10-11 o'clock position and the engine seemed to start better then. Now, in the present mounting position, the regulator is still in a vertical plane, but the outlet is at 9 o'clock. The PNG Technologies tech said the outlet should be at 12 o'clock/straight up, but I noticed that several pictures of installs in this thread have the regulator rotated over to 9 o'clock. Do you think this makes any effect on regulator function???

Regards,
John

[snarfattack]

professor95 wrote:
10 gauge copper wires are good for running to the starter for a distance of 20 feet. You can go longer but the voltage drop at the 25 amp cranking current begins to become a consideration. Best to parallel twin #10 or even #12 wires after 20 feet unless you want to run larger gauge #8 or #6.

It is much safer to run a single, larger gauge wire. What happens if one of your two wires is cut or the connection goes bad? It will cause damage to components and the remaining wire due to voltage drop and over-heating. Pairing two small gauge wires is not the same concept as stranded wire. Stick with a single large gauge wire that when it fails, it fails and you will know it.

Josh

[gasser9]

John as for your line size question you must remember that the line from the mixer to the "0" PRESSURE regulator is primarily a vacuum line! There was not enough vaccum at "cold start" to supply enough fuel for stareting & initial run. It is a concept that messes with mechanics mind all the time. It is what makes LPG carburation so difficult to diagnose for mechanics with carburator & injector experiance! Vaccum Vaccum
Dennis

[wheeldo]

Thanks guys, Kragen in OOS in my area and the nearest tractor supply is a 2 hour drive one way. Guess I'll have to take a road trip to Bakersfield.

[5akman]

I just saw them for 300.00 in a Tractor Supply ad here in northern CA. I'm sure there has to be a TSC somewhere in SoCal. I paid 360.00 at Kragens this last fall.

[tvman44]

Tractor Supply has them on sale right now for $299.00, in store only.

[wheeldo]

I've read much of this thread but have to ask-where can I find the Champion other than Cabela's?

I'm in Southern California and they sell the Champion 7000W at Costco but I can't find the 3000W anywhere.

Would be nice to have gotten in on the $300 deal but at this point I'm just trying to find one locally. Thanks for any pointers!

[Old___Slow]

Cooling seems to be some of the topic here, so ~

Just came in from a long awaited test. Some time ago, Prof' listed a link to a dog bone for the 240v 4 prong twist lock recp't for Champion C46540,or other makes with 120v/240v option. Today was the first time to put it into use. I have a sad face. Before the test, the genset warmed up for ten minutes. Operating on reg. gas not LPG. Here are the temps after the warm up and then adding 3000w resistive load. Using one 1500w heater on each 120v pigtail coming from the 240v twist lock. 10 minutes after adding the 3000w load. Air intake at breather 95 degrees, Head 240 degrees, Manifold 440 degrees, Muffler (Stock) 410 degrees, genhead silver cover 180 degrees, genhead main body 210 degrees, genhead exhaust 180 degrees. All was well until 25 minutes after adding the 3000w load, the genset shut down. 😞

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
John,

I elected the down draft fan on the current install mostly because it was my only logical choice. But, on the previous install inside the insulated box the lower center exhaust fan was elected because it was the closest to the normal exit path for both cooling air across the engine and through the alternator.

I did not do any flow testing on updraft fans, but I do know that they work. It just did not seem practical to be bringing heated air back across components I was trying to cool.

It seems to me that if the entire bottom of the genset is open (like the DuroPower) and the fan is placed on the end above the insulated muffler box, the draft will suck a portion of the exhausted engine cooling air that strikes the muffler, suck heat rising around the muffler, and perhaps draft some cool air up and around the alternator ... perhaps enhancing cooling. The exhausted cooling air from the alternator is even farther away from my proposed location of the fan and is directed downward. Hard for me to believe the updraft fan will have much effect on its discharge (I could put a fence on the left side of the alternator exhaust just to ensure it doesn't draft laterally and up towards the fan. The whole shebang is going to be sitting a couple of feet above the ground, so there will be lots of free air circulating.

The biggest mistake I see is NOT considering air flow in the cabinet design. There is (was?) a mistaken theory that hot air came out the back of the alternator. The actual path is into the back of the alternator and out the bottom where the alternator connects to the engine.

Incoming air flow to the engine fan/shroud and rear of the alternator is critical. Absolutely nothing should be there to keep cool air from flowing in or to allow recirculation of heated air from inside the cabinet. Simply putting a big fan on a box will not work!

Looks like if the fan is sucking air out of the top of the area, that will cut down on recirculation of heated air that has risen above the muffler, engine, and alternator.

As for a 12 VDC source, why are you even using yet another battery? I elected to use the on-board camper battery for starting and running the 12 volt fan. Why add weight and maintenance that is un-needed? Additionally, the battery charger output from the generator is unregulated. It “might” recharge a battery in a pinch, but the life span of the battery will be proportionally reduced in relation to the frequency of using the generator battery charger. 10 gauge copper wires are good for running to the starter for a distance of 20 feet. You can go longer but the voltage drop at the 25 amp cranking current begins to become a consideration. Best to parallel twin #10 or even #12 wires after 20 feet unless you want to run larger gauge #8 or #6.

Great idea! You just saved me the cost of a battery! It'll probably be a 20-25' run from the batteries in the front to the genset on the back ... do-able!

[MrWizard]

I have NO experience in this conversion of LP
but your logic sounds correct, regarding the size of the feed line.