3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jlaustin]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
...
Question was what you -or anyone else- preferred as a PENETRATING OIL . . . .

- - the stuff to free-up RUSTED BOLTS
eg; Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, etc.
...

After successfully removing about a 2" nut off a bush-hog, I vote for PB Blaster!

Regards,
John

[ol_Bombero-JC]

professor95 wrote:

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Home brew (Acetone & ATF)?~

JC

Acetone and ATF was the "cure all" for engines when they took lead out of gasoline. The ATF worked as a top cylinder lubricant for the valve guides and the acetone was suppose to increase MPG.

Not at all sure it really worked. Still, I put the mix in my old MoPar 360 - along with a over-the-shelf lead substitute. But, as you know, if you BELIEVE it will work it becomes a MIRACLE cure no matter what (yes, I am guilty too). Slick 50 and Split Fire Spark Plugs proved that once again for the younger generation. I think the word "Snake Oil" is sometimes used in the same paragraph as the above :@

Oh, BTW, I have some magnets here you can put over your generator's fuel line that will rearrange the molecular structure of gasoline so it burns better and will improve your run-time by 200%. Buy one get another FREE if ordered in the next 24 hours! Only a dollar-two-ninety-nine. (plus 20$ S&H for each item)!:B

~

Prof - somehow the question flew over your head! 😞

Question (and ATF/Acetone home brew) had *NOTHING* to do with Top oils, etc.

Question was what you -or anyone else- preferred as a PENETRATING OIL . . . .

- - the stuff to free-up RUSTED BOLTS
eg; Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, etc.

Sometimes new chemistry provides new solutions for old problems!

BTW - I've never tried the Acetone/ATF . . . for anything, LOL!

~

JC

[MrWizard]

Back in 64 I owned a Bridgestone 50cc two stroke motorcycle (it was classed as a moped) with three speed tranny and a clutch
Any way I did nothing to hop it up, it was all I could manage just to get my mom to let me buy it, modifying it was out of the question

Modifying my vehicles had to wait until I reached adult status and moved out

[bill_h]

professor95 wrote:




Bob has reminded me of a story from my past.

A buddy had a 50cc two-stroke Sears MoPed and could not keep up with those of us owning larger scooters or bikes (this was when I was 14 or 15 years old)like the Cushman Eagles and Sachs JB's of the era. Tommy came up with a concoction consisting of 1 gallon of Gulf Crest (then 106 octane), a pint can of model airplane glow plug fuel and a bottle of ether (which we could by over the counter at the farm store). He topped it all off with a GOLD plated twin electrode Wizard spark plug from Western Auto.

The little two-stroke MoPed would scream with this fuel concoction. But, after paying for rebuilding his engine when his piston melted he decided to go back to regular gasoline for fuel. :B

LOL. Ihad one of those in the early sixties, too. Made by Puch.

I devised a part time setup that injected some Francisco Two-Snapper fuel directly into the intake manifold. It contained nitromethane and alcohol, as well as castor oil to prevent piston sticking, which was the usual failure mode for that bike. The engine was fan cooled, so I improved that a little to avoid over-temping. I only used it for a short burst when I was losing a race, so there was no disaster. I did stick the piston now and then, but used muriatic acid to clean the aluminum residue from the cylinder wall and a fine file to remove the high spots on the piston skirt, and ran it again. I finally put in a Mahle piston which was a much lower expansion alloy with a Dykes ring, and no more problems.

That was back in the early sixties when half of UCLA rode mopeds or scooters. There was a blue fog over the area when classes ended.

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Home brew (Acetone & ATF)?~

JC

Acetone and ATF was the "cure all" for engines when they took lead out of gasoline. The ATF worked as a top cylinder lubricant for the valve guides and the acetone was suppose to increase MPG.

Not at all sure it really worked. Still, I put the mix in my old MoPar 360 - along with a over-the-shelf lead substitute. But, as you know, if you BELIEVE it will work it becomes a MIRACLE cure no matter what (yes, I am guilty too). Slick 50 and Split Fire Spark Plugs proved that once again for the younger generation. I think the word "Snake Oil" is sometimes used in the same paragraph as the above :@

Oh, BTW, I have some magnets here you can put over your generator's fuel line that will rearrange the molecular structure of gasoline so it burns better and will improve your run-time by 200%. Buy one get another FREE if ordered in the next 24 hours! Only a dollar-two-ninety-nine. (plus 20$ S&H for each item)!:B

[professor95]

IMHO, there is nothing WRONG with Sea Foam. Just be aware of what you are spending your $7 a can for.

For cleaning out the top end of an engine (valves, piston, head) I like PB Blaster Lawn Mower Engine Tune-UP or BK engine cleaner. I am sure there are others that will soften carbon and gunk as well. I get the PB stuff at Tractor Supply.

Gas at Mom & Pop or discount outlets will vary according to where you live. In my town gas for Kroger comes straight from the Shell Oil tanker terminal. Of course, it could come from elsewhere next year if another company turns in a lower bid. I do NOT buy discount gas away from home because I do not know where it comes from. Of course, I no longer buy much gas away from home anymore anyway. I fill up the Volvo at truck stops in the truck fuel lanes with diesel.

Bob is right about corrosive substances and avoiding them. Again, Methanol Alcohol, Ammonia and Phosphoric Acid are some used in various fuel tank additives. Read the label. If they do not tell you the contents there is probably a good reason! I try to avoid eating, drinking or using anything that I can not identify what it is made-up from.

Bob has reminded me of a story from my past.

A buddy had a 50cc two-stroke Sears MoPed and could not keep up with those of us owning larger scooters or bikes (this was when I was 14 or 15 years old)like the Cushman Eagles and Sachs JB's of the era. Tommy came up with a concoction consisting of 1 gallon of Gulf Crest (then 106 octane), a pint can of model airplane glow plug fuel and a bottle of ether (which we could by over the counter at the farm store). He topped it all off with a GOLD plated twin electrode Wizard spark plug from Western Auto.

The little two-stroke MoPed would scream with this fuel concoction. But, after paying for rebuilding his engine when his piston melted he decided to go back to regular gasoline for fuel. :B

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Prof - great "article" on Alcohol & Fuel Additives, etc.
Way better than .02 worth!

When I got down to the "Home Brew" for Varnish & Gum - reminded me of the many penetrating oil (*external*, of course) solutions for rusted bolts etc.

Probably never need it for generators, but figured it was a good time to gently slide off topic and find out what you and the forum folks prefer. Brand preferences? Home brew (Acetone & ATF)?

~

JC

[toprudder]

This sounds a LOT like a discussion that often occurs regarding gasoline/ignition model airplane engines. 99% of these engines are 2 stroke engines that use fuel/oil mixture.

The fuel line we use for gasoline model airplane engines is "Tygon". People have noticed that it begins to harden and lose its flexibility when E10 gasoline is used. Some say that the diaphragm in the Walbro type carbs also ages quicker.

Some people will use Coleman lantern fluid instead of gasoline. Others will use 100LL aviation fuel. I've tried the 100LL gas and did not notice any performance difference (power or operating temp) but did not use it enough to be able to comment on its long-term benefits. I did like it because it smelled better than gasoline (a concern when you may carry the plane and support equipment in your car or, in my case, camper). I have read where you may have more buildup in the engine due to the lead content.

I have only seen one gas station in my area (about 30 miles away) that advertises its fuel to be 100% gasoline with no alcohol. If it were closer, I might buy all my fuel from there.

The good old-fashioned "glow fuel" engines, which are generally smaller than practical for gas/ignition, run on a mixture of methanol/oil/nitro. They are notorious for internal corrosion if not cleaned/stored properly. Bearings will often need to be replaced due to this reason, not for wear. The gasoline engines have virtually NO problem with internal corrosion (but remember, these are 2 strokes with oil added).

I've gotten to the point where I almost never fly a glow-fuel powered plane. Just too messy. I like the electrics for the smaller planes (ease of use) and gasoline for the larger ones (less cleanup).

[mecreature]

I use seafoam a couple times a year. Usually when I am going to run a whole tank full and use fresh gas.

I use stabil in every tank of gas on my 92 2 stroke 9.9 merc. Still runs like a champ. Or "Champ"


you have reputable people swear by it.. and other reputable people tell you it is junk and will tear up your engine.

[MrWizard]

I use "sea foam" as a periodic cleaner, and think next time I will try the profs homebrew,
If I have a can of gas for two weeks, ive been house sitting and not in need of portable power

LP. is great for home emg power, but a real nuisance and inconvenience for Rv use

I try to limit my use of the onboard 6300w lp onan, instead I use my champion as much as possible and have started installing solar panels on the roof

[crab80]

I use the Racor filters in my boats. They have the clear bowl at the bottom with the valve to drain it off occasionally. They are a bit pricey, 25-30 dollar range just for the element but I have NEVER had a fuel issue since using them, around 700 hrs per season. -Lee

[msmd1]

TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Check it out below. I try to stick with their retailers for fuel.


Click here.

[byates]

OR,
You can just use a quality name brand fuel such as Shell, Chevron, Exxon, Mobil which have the chemicals already added to keep your intake system and valves clean. Of course use Stabil if it is to be stored for a while.
Stay away from the mom and pop dealers, as well as Sam's Club, Kroger, etc. These products do not contain the third generation of fuel additives that the major brands do.

byates

[professor95]

Looks like we are getting into an alcohol and fuel additive discussion along with issues on E10, or ethanol in gasoline.

My 2 cents worth is ethanol in small engines is bad, Same for 2-stroke engines like the outboard on my boat. Methanol is really bad, bad, bad. It will eat away aluminum, plastic and is extremely corrosive. Fortunately, it is no longer used as a gas pump alcohol additive but is in some bottled additives. Read the label - if it contains methanol put it back on the shelf - not in your tank.

The biggest problem is ethanol is hygroscopic - meaning it absorbs water. Not just water in the gas tank, but water in the air. A vented fuel tank is exposed to the air and as such when the humidity is high moisture is going to collect in the alcohol.

The shelf life of E10 is no more than 90 days. Beyond that it is considered "unstable" and is likely to have the alcohol separate from the gasoline. You see, alcohol and gas molecules will disperse among one another but they do not combine. So, after time you have separate mixtures of gas and alcohol. If moisture is there, which it will be, you are going to have a gel in the bottom of your gas tank or fuel bowl. I see this frequently in the red plastic gas cans I store fuel in. I always add Stabil to the fuel when I store it. When the fuel gets old I NEVER pour it into a gas tank so as to empty the entire red container and add the gunk that forms in the bottom of the container. Don't believe me? Pour the full contents of some outdated E10 into a gallon glass jar like a pickle jar. Be sure to pour it all including what is at the bottom. You will see the gunk on the bottom of the fuel in the jar. Now, CAREFULLY pour the gas off so as to not include the gunk. It will still run fine in a small engine if fuel stabilizer was added earlier.

So what to do?

One is only purchase gas without alcohol. But, in some states, like mine, every convenient gas pump is 10% alcohol. I can get straight gas at the marina up at the lake, 50 miles away. But, it is 93 octane premium fuel and runs about $1.50 a gallon more than pump grade 67 octane E10. (It was $4.25 a gallon in August).

Another is to add a fuel filter to the gas line (on the generator) that has a bronze or ceramic element that will trap water and gel before it gets to the carburetor. They are expensive, about $30 a pop at a marine store. I love the old style glass sediment bowls you can see what is getting into the fuel system and then open them to dump the******out. But, they are hard to find. Unfortunately, the gunk still collects in your tank - it just stays out of your engine.

You could always convert to propane, as I have done on several of my generators.

Probably the best approach is to turn off the fuel petcock and run the carb dry after use, then take the drain plug out of the side of the carburetor float bowl and stick it on top of the generator with duct tape until the next use. Maybe stuff a piece of cloth rag into the drain hole to keep insects out.

If you are going to keep gas in the tank make sure it is full so condensation will not form and be absorbed into the alcohol. Dump it or use it within three months - even if it has a stabilizer added. The gunk that forms will be at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel is drawn from.

Yet another solution is to only purchase name brand gasoline with a known level of added detergents and solvents. Shell, Texaco, Exxon and Sunoco are four that immediately come to mind as meeting the requirements.

DO NOT use premium or the highest octane fuel in a small generator engine unless it is specifically called for in the manual. Some believe that mid-grade 89 octane is superior to 87 octane lowest grade. (octane ranges will vary depending upon where you live) "Supposedly", or according to popular myth, mid-grade fuels are better engine cleaners than low grade fuels like 87 octane. Again, my belief is that is bunk. 90% of vehicles on the road today call for the use of 87 octane (85 in some states) by the manufacturer. Unless you have a high compression engine designed for premimum you could actually see more carbon build-up and less performance due to the slow burn characteristics (anti-knock properties) of premium fuel.

Actually doing any or all of the fuel advice given is impractical from a time point of view and personally, I think it sucks we have to do it. I am NOT a supporter of E10 or E85. As far as energy conservation is concerned it is a joke and our lawmakers that have mandated it don't have a clue what the real cost of E10 is to the America motoring public. You will find an interesting article here built on a MSNBC report that gives a pretty strong opinion on E10 and small engines.

Now for Seafoam:

The major ingredients are 40-60%: Pale Oil, which is similar to WD-40 or clear Kerosene.

25-35%: Naphtha, which can be purchased in quarts or gallon cans at any paint store. It is an extremely clean burning solvent and is used in dry cleaning and lighter fluid. Also the major chemical compound in Coleman gas lantern fuel which, BTW, can be mixed with gasoline for cleaning up a fuel system. 20% is the usual mix.

Continuing with Seafoam ingredients:

10-20%: isopropyl alcohol - (NOT ethanol or Methanol) Isopropyl reportedly does not gel like ethanol and can even help to remove the gunk from water and ethanol by breaking it down and once again mixing it with the gas. (Personally, I still don't want the mix going through my engine.)

Home-brewers have for years made their own SeaFoam like mixture for pennies on the dollar by using 94% Isopropyl from a drug store, a shot of kerosene or transmission fluid, and VM&P Naphtha from a hardware store. You have a lubricant, and a solvent that can break down varnish and gum.

Another homebrew mixture that is stronger that SeaFoam and may work better to remove varnish and gum is to add in Toluene, Acetone, and/or MEK. Again, all available at the hardware/paint store. Some recipes call for all five chemicals with or without pale oil and some just us one chemical alone. Or, you can buy commercially mixed cans under the name of Berryman B-12 Chemtool.

If you use additives often, it is much less expensive to buy the quart or gallon cans of the major chemicals and make it up yourself. You can mix $6 worth of Seafoam equivalent for about $1. And yes, I do make my own and use it in the outboard and small engines to clean up any varnish or gum that may be building up. One more comment about the Isopropyl alcohol - it is not pure alcohol, there is some water in it. You can find it in 50%, 77% and 94% concentrations. Obviously you do not want to add water to your fuel so stay away from anything but 94%. You can also purchase 99% Isopropyl in the RED (not Yellow ) bottles of HEET commercial gas line dryer.

My recipe is:

3 parts Naphtha
1 part 94% to 99% Isopropyl Alcohol
1 part MEK or Toluene or 2 parts Acetone.

Add 2 ounces of mix to each gallon of gas.

It typically takes two tank fulls (8 gallons) to completely clean all varnish and gum build up out of a Chinese generator fuel system. It DOES NOT immediately clean things up. It needs time and may have to sit in the fuel tank and carburetor for a few days to soften hard varnish build-up.

BTW - this mixture will also boost octane which is why I like it in my older 70hp Evinrude 3 cylinder, 2-stroke outboard. I can get another 250 rpm on the top end with the mix (or premium gas) since the engine has a high compression ratio.

NEVER put this stuff in the oil (crankcase) of a small engine like the generator. Just stick with a good detergent oil.

Lastly some folks like to buy the spray carburetor cleaner and squirt it into the carburetor throat with the engine running. This is NOT a good idea! The extra fluid inside an engine can cause damage because it will not compress. Too much fluid in the cylinder, fire in the plug goes out, piston comes up on compression stroke, things break. Additionally, spraying into the throat of the carburetor does noting to clean out the main jets or float bowl where most of the gunk ends up.

Maybe that is a little more than 2 cents worth.:h But, it is given freely.

Remember: Just because it may seem like I know what I am talking about does not really mean that I do!

[MrWizard]

ie "use of fuel"

If you put sea foam in every tank of fuel then you are not increasing the ethanol fuel level you are adding Isolproponol

Using it occasionally to clean the system is "service work " not regular fuel consumption

My cummins diesel has ether injection for cold weather conditions starting,
I would never run the engine on ether mix, but it won't hurt the engine to use the ether to start it

THE MANUALS do not say "Never use fuel additives," never clean the carb etc.