3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Charsweb33]

Agent iron, thanks for the reply, looks like I will be getting one. Nice to know about the Costco standing behind their products, I don't know too much about them yet.

[Navychop]

Well, folks, I need some help. Professor95, I hope you have some ideas:

I just received a Kipor 3500Ti with electric start. Runs great. When it runs. I seem to have a battery or charging system problem. The battery is 12v, 5.25" wide, 5.25" tall, 3" wide, sealed.

I started the gen for the 1st time and ran it for an hour. No probs. Another day, ran it for 2.5 hours with my trailer hooked up- charging two 6 volts & running lights, fridge and microwave to test it. I then kept it in a shed at freezing temps overnight. Late next morning, with temps in high 30s, it wouldn't turn over. Low volts on battery. Jumped from truck for a few minutes to charge the battery, disconnected from the truck, started up ok. Ran it one hour connected to TT. Tried to restart as a test, no dice. Then I removed the battery and hooked up to battery charger. After 2 hours or so, charger said it's fully charged. Hooked up voltmeter, watched voltage drop from around 13.5 to 13.1 over a couple of minutes.

Possibilities:
1. Charger on generator not working.
2. Bad battery.

So the next day, I tried starting it with the recoil starter with the battery completely removed. Ran fine. Voltage out of the battery leads was a stable 13.5, with econo mode on and off. Voltage out of the DC output was 19v with econo mode on, 28v off, both varying somewhat. No load on DC or gen. I expected the charging voltage to have been around 14, but maybe 13.5 is fine.

The battery, one day after charging it on the 120v charger, seemed to be stabilized around 12.8v. 2 days after charging, it was 12.7v.

So tonight, 2 days after charging the battery, I reinstalled it and started the gen. After one hour running with no load and in econo mode, I stopped the gen. After waiting a few seconds, I restarted it. It restarted, but seemed a little slow in the restart. I ran the gen, unloaded, for another hour, this time with econo mode off. Then I tried restarting again. It took 3 or 4 tries to get it going, and then it just barely started. I've got it running for another hour right now, but I have no hope that it will restart after this hour is up.

Now I don't know if it's a bad battery or somehow still the charging ckt. I doubt there is some kind of parasitic load draining the battery. Intermittent short? Tomorrow I will follow Mike R's advice and have the battery tested, perhaps at a local battery store or auto shop. I am suspicious of the battery, esp since it slowly loses voltage- but I don't have the time to see if it stabilizes at 12v or such, or continues to weaken. I must figure this out soon or contact the seller for return or warranty claim/repair. Hopefully, this problem is obvious to someone more knowledgeable than I.

So what are YOUR thoughts? Bad battery? Charging circuit? Other electrical problem? Please chime in.

[Agent_Iron]

charsweb

I bought one of the Nicota's a few weeks back. It is the new design with the switch for 120 or 240. I ran mine for about 7 hours with a variety of loads it it did great. Ran strong, relatively quiet, and handled everything I plugged in it. I am very happy with mine, and Costo will stand behind the product even if the manufacturer will not.

Good luck

[fellow_traveler]

nigelstubblefield wrote:
I wonder if Champion will sell parts to upgrade the old generators?

Chanpion only stocks parts for their generators you can access their web site with Chanpion Power Equipment.com and give them you requests and get a prompted answer! sincerly fellow traveler need to go camping got cabin feaver BAD!

[nigelstubblefie]

I wonder if Champion will sell parts to upgrade the old generators?

[Charsweb33]

I just joined the local Costco store and noticed that they have a Nikota generator for 249.95 (includes a 50 dollar manufactures mailin rebate). The box description said it produces 25 amps. The display model was turned so I couldn't see the outlets which were on the generator end of the unit, it was on a shelf about six feet above the floor. I know the older versions were problematic, but how are the newer ones? The box also gave the weight as 114.5 pounds with the included wheel kit.

[boucher1]

Professor95

Hi,

I may have some new info on LAUNTOP. It seems that this firm was established in TAIWAN and has transfered manufacturing of 6.5 HP units and other genset to CHINA.
If you or others have info on this please let me know.

Thanks again

Roger:W

[mr_lucky]

take two.

Is It April yet

Great news

MR. Lucky

[mr_lucky]

Is it

yet:);):)


Great post thanks for the news

Mr. Lucky

[clapp75]

Regarding Professor's comments on page 168--the Champion generator with the RV outlet--I called up Champion Power Equipment to get more details on the subject.

Talked with Adam in tech support, who had lots of good information. The new gen will be nearly identical to their C46535 3500W gen with the addition of the RV outlet, and a switch to select 240V/110V.

That outlet will provide 22-23A.

They will be available sometime in March, 2006.

Champion will be selling them at Parts America stores/Shucks/Kragen/Checker. Expect them to be in stores by April...

Price will be close to the current 3500W gen.


Also, Champion will also be selling covers for their generators soon, to be sold on their website www.championpowerequipment.com for around $25, in case anybody is interested. Didn't see them there today however.

All of this sounds promising. If everything is as they advertise, many of us in areas that have Parts America stores will be very happy to not drive to the east/west coasts for a Honda-type-knockoff... !!

[Navychop]

EXAMS! Oh, I remember them! I preferred being on the giving end, rather than the taking end (taught one class in a CC).

Yes, thank you, you've answered my questions beyond what I could reasonably expect. I already have the Kipor on the way, I'm sure I'll be happy with it, even though it may be overkill. Anything beats that Coleman 5000ER I once had. Anything.

[professor95]

One (hopefully) last set of questions:

So even motor based devices, such as laser printers, and also A-V equipment, should work fine, and be safe to work with, generators with "noisy" sine waves?

Any consumer equipment that works better/safer with cleaner, non noisy sine waves?

And if I ever get a large RV inverter (as opposed to the small one I run my laptop on), I'd best be served by a pure sine wave type?

Any benefits you see at all to the Kipor/Honda/Yamaha "pure" sine wave generators over the less expensive ones, ignoring sound levels, construction, support, any factors other than the actual power output in terms of noise or sine wave/steps?

signed,
Persistently annoying student

Sorry to take so long in replying, it's been a pretty busy week with mid-term exams on the schedule.

You know, you are really putting me on the spot :B with those questions since it is difficult to emphatically give a 100% "all the time" answer. Just as sure as the world I give you one answer, someone or something will pop up to contradict it - or your attempt to duplicate it will yield just the opposite. There are just too many variables to just say Yes or No.

Perhaps it is better to answer your questions by sharing my personal experiences – that should be safe.

Our camper is pretty large for a trailer(non-fiver). We are right at 35’ and 11,000#. Consequently, there is room inside for built in floor to ceiling entertainment center cabinets in both the bedroom and the living room. I have filled both with ample electronics entertainment gear.

The bedroom has a 24” Samsung TV coupled to a Pioneer 400 watt 5.1 surround sound DVD player, receiver and amp.

The living room sports a 27” RCA TV with a 5 disc integrated DVD/CD player and another 5.1 surround sound amp. There is also a Direct TV DSS receiver and a VCR.

Nancy and I often like to camp where there are no hookups. Our favorite venue is Big Meadows on the Skyline Drive. When we dry camp I rely on the roof mounted solar panels to keep two group 27 deep cycle marine batteries charged. These batteries are independent of the house batteries and only power what has to be one of the cheapest 1,200 watt modified sine wave inverters you could find anywhere (5 year old Nikota from PepBoys). I have the inverter configured so I can power the entire electrical system in the camper with a flick of a switch, sans the 110 to the fridge and the battery charger/converter. Both front and rear AV systems perform flawlessly when powered by the inverter. No noise, no picture fold in, no popping or cracking. The only problem I have is keeping the batteries charged. When they drop to around 11.5 volts the inverter goes crazy and the equipment poops out.

I also have a Panasonic DLP projector. Last time we went to the mountains I carried it and a portable screen along. Using the inverter to run the projector, a set of powered computer speakers and a really cheap Apex DVD player we set up a small “drive-in movie” theater outside and entertained several fellow campers who came over with lawn chairs with Jane Fonda and Monster-in-Law. Again, there were no apparent problems with the projector, audio or DVD player from the inverter power.

In September we made a trip to Kitty Hawk. We had to camp without hookups. It got pretty warm, so I fired up the ELM3000 generator to run the AC. There was no one close by to bother so I let it run from early afternoon to about 10:00 that night. I used both the front and rear entertainment systems and the DSS receiver with no apparent noise or problems.

I have never tried a laser printer with either device. But, I would imagine it would work as well as a computer. Of course, the lamp in a laser printer will pull considerable current and would quickly deplete the batteries connected to an inverter.

The only devices I cannot successfully power from the inverter are the microwave and a blender (well, the AC draws too much current). I have spoken to these problems in previous postings.

I have been told by associates more experienced in these matters than I am that some medical equipment and home entertainment systems may experience interference from devices such as we are discussing. I am sure they are correct – but I have not had those experiences personally.

It is my belief that power sources across the US and in other countries cannot always be relied on to produce noise free, exact frequency and stable voltages. Thus, electronic equipment manufacturers intentionally make their products to fit and perform properly under some pretty adverse line conditions. Medical, studio recording and broadcasting equipment understandably require a higher standard than end consumer gear. I don't think it would be a good idea to power them from an inverter or one of the economy models of Chinese generators we have been discussing.

So back to your question: I don't see a need to invest in the so called “high end” power generation gear for your RV unless it is a personal issue that you just absolutely have to have that noise free, precisely formed, well regulated power source so you can sleep well at night.

Hopefully, I have given a “safe” answer to a difficult question…….

[Navychop]

Heck, I'm close enough to "crash" some of those classes.

One (hopefully) last set of questions:

So even motor based devices, such as laser printers, and also A-V equipment, should work fine, and be safe to work with, generators with "noisy" sine waves?

Any consumer equipment that works better/safer with cleaner, non noisy sine waves?

And if I ever get a large RV inverter (as opposed to the small one I run my laptop on), I'd best be served by a pure sine wave type?

Any benefits you see at all to the Kipor/Honda/Yamaha "pure" sine wave generators over the less expensive ones, ignoring sound levels, construction, support, any factors other than the actual power output in terms of noise or sine wave/steps?

signed,
Persistently annoying student

on edit:
PS- We used 400Hz on the sub I was on. One day, a tiny 400Hz motor failed, 4 would fit in the palm of your hand. Several of us stood around, we couldn't bring ourselves to discard it, it was so finely crafted, excellent ball bearings, just out of tolerance. Finally, one of us said he'd keep it as a keepsake. I wish it was me that did that....

[LittleBill]

professor95 wrote:


You know, I'm still not sure that I have given you the info you need to answer your questions. The truth is, I am having trouble explaining it all by just using my computer keyboard. In the classroom I have all the gadgets and widgets imaginable to demonstrate the concepts. Sadly, I lack that here.

I like your questions. They are challenging and interesting.

get a video camera, take it to class, video tape your gadgets, bring it home, upload it, then we can watch you in class 🙂

[professor95]

So the "inverter" generators such as the Kipors and Honda EU series, are reputed to produce an excellent sine wave, perhaps even better than the mains power out of your home outlets. Does this mean the "inverter" used in these generators is not the same animal as used from batteries? No AC produced from DC with generators? Just what is this generator "inverter" doing? Does it somehow just "smooth" the sine wave? Or does it produce more "steps" in the square wave, so many as to be indistinguishable from a so-called "true" sine wave for all practical purposes? Something else?

60Hz Ac is actually very inefficient. We use 60Hz more because it is convenient and easy to generate.

For years the military used 400Hz AC electronic equipment. I remember because I once received truck loads of surplus stuff as a reward for my participation in MARS (Military Affiliated Radio System). A 400Hz transformer was a fraction of the size of a conventional 60Hz transformer providing the same power rating. The rectifier circuits and filters were also miniscule compared to 60Hz equipment. Many of these units used DC, usually 24 volts, to run the high frequency generator. The devices were known as "Dynamotors". Sadly, if you tried to operate this equipment on 60Hz it would quickly heat up and let all the smoke out.

The "inverter technology" used by Honda and others is similar. The generator does not produce DC and then convert it to AC. Rather, they generate a high frequency AC signal, sample it at periodic intervals and through the magic of microprocessors produce a very precise 60Hz sine wave. Since the actual generator is a high frequency AC type, it is also possible to make it smaller in size since the efficiency is greater. Now, please do not ask me the frequency Honda uses - I don't know. But, maybe if I do some research I can find out.

The majority of inexpensive "Modified Sine Wave" inverters depend upon high power switching transistors to turn on, turn off and invert the DC signal. Most now use the transistor switching principle to create a high frequency, high voltage, lowered current sine wave and then "chop" the output (maybe too simple of an explanation?). The result is the so called modified sine wave. The major issue with these inexpensive inverters centers on switching noise and the lack of a true "peak voltage" similar to a 60Hz sine wave produced by a generator. Power supplies in electronic equipment that replicates the switching principle, like computers and more modern TVs and sound equipment, get along just fine without a peak voltage. It is usually older equipment relying on power supplies made up of transformers, rectifiers and capacitors that suffer from the modified sine wave from inverters. Induction motors also operate at reduced power levels and quite a few microwaves simply will not work with this type of signal. If your favor is frozen Margaritas from a blender and you choose to power the blender with an inverter while on a dry camping excursion, expect the blender to overheat and die before the ice is crushed. I guess this is why some guy decided to put a "Weed Eater" gasoline motor on a blender.

High end "pure sine wave" inverters use microprocessors to do what you described earlier -

".... produce more "steps" in the square wave, so many as to be indistinguishable from a so-called "true" sine wave for all practical purposes?"

By the way, that is the whole concept behind digital to analog conversion used in CD and DVD players.

You know, I'm still not sure that I have given you the info you need to answer your questions. The truth is, I am having trouble explaining it all by just using my computer keyboard. In the classroom I have all the gadgets and widgets imaginable to demonstrate the concepts. Sadly, I lack that here.

I like your questions. They are challenging and interesting.