Bad Converter Charger

[thewayweroll]

Wife & I are out in Truck Camper. Usually take a look at an app on my phone that links to my solar charge controller. It showed the batteries at 16.78v

WOW!

I have a multimeter & got to digging around. Think I found the issue. When I shut off the breaker for the converter/charger the batteries come back down to 14v. We are running the generator for power right now. I've not experienced a Converter failure so has anyone seen this high voltage issue when they start failing?

It is the converter I've read about that has a bad reputation

6332 Magnatek

However, I had this in my last 1996 Shadow Cruiser 9.5ft truck camper for 5 years (original) & it never gave me a hint of trouble. I'm pretty sure though this Camper was used a bit more over the years.

[MrWizard]

2x a year n for deep cycle recharge
Once every 6 months
Better info would be the number of shallow cycles allowed between deep discharge & recharge cycle
Camping styles and number of days nights vary per individual
I'm full-time if I followed the 2x year recommendation, it could be 183 days of shallow cycles before a deep cycle recharge,
I do believe that would be too much sulphation buildup
I strive to keep my batteries at or above 70% soc
But there are mornings when when it is significantly less, one morning a few weeks ago it was 46% SOC
I will charge till the meter indicates 1 amp or less charge rate, sometimes because of other uses and wanting to keep the batteries in a top OFF state, until bed time, I will keep going even when there is zero amps charge into the batteries, but I still powering other things, instead of immediately using the inverter and going into load discharge use,
In the last two weeks I have done that 4x, with the power monitor showing zero amps charge rate at 14.x volts, with the converter supplying the lights and parasitic loads, it would take a different setup to register milliamp float charging

[CharlesinGA]

Not sure what the deal is with Best Converter, they are supposed to know their stuff, but when i asked about replacing a certain WFCO converter in a WFCO panel, they said Progressive didn't make one to directly fit and wanted to steer me to the Boondocker/Powermax. After some research (reading the instructions) I found the PD4600 series DOES replace the WFCO I wanted to replace, you remove the converter from the steel box, use the plastic bar that is provided and slide the converter in place of the WFCO using the plastic bar to lock it in place and THROW AWAY THE STEEL BOX THE PD CAME IN.

Apparently Best Converter has not done a lot of recent research on some of this stuff.

Charles

[time2roll]

Very nice. You will not go wrong with the 4645.

[thewayweroll]

Thought I would update this thread to show the outcome. Thanks for all who responded with great information!

I settled on a 45 Amp PD4645V Converter from Liesure Times Dist. (517-554-1586) I Installed this back in July 2020 & all seems to be okay so far.

Out with the Old...



In with the New...

[thewayweroll]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Charging CONCORDE LIFELINE at their max rate makes their cost worthwhile. Five hours versus ten. Then stare at the several thousand dollars for the generator. Myself, I stare at the thirty two dollars for fuel each time I need to drive to the gas station. Plus time plus hassle
This isn't a set piece evaluation. You need to do your own audit. Yes, half an acre of solar panels is neat until a tropical storm brings a week of dense clouds or golf ball size hail greets glass.

Fuel adds up quickly no doubt about it but most enjoy travel.

I have the OE Onan Gen (propane) that came w/the camper.. just adjusted a voltage screw towards the top b/c I noticed it was only putting out 116v under no load & 15 min runtime. I brought it up to 124v the manual recommends. New plug & oil change. 321 hours

My primary gen. (gas) it was $800 new & 50 hours on it so far. I use it to run my A/c at times. no complaints so far.

As for solar... It allows me to stay away from shore power & gen pays for itself as a backup. Even fuel & hassles.

I consider Solar & Modern batteries to be one of our greatest inventions of all time! :C

You mentioned storms (Wind) would it pain you to know I taped all 4 solar panels down to the roof? ha ha Good thing about solar panels is they've come down in price & in the 5 years I've used solar nothing crazy has happened yet. Its weather so it has great forces anything can happen though.

Checked out Lifeline DC & Thought I'd read where they claim over 1000 Cycles @50% if that's true incredible. Put against my current AGM's that claim 700 cycles @50% DOD that cost $180 a Piece LESS according to Amazon prices I just can't see much value in them except for perhaps the "Prorated" warranty after 1st year warranty is over. Basically, I can almost buy 2 of my currents vs 1 Lifeline. Yes, my group 31 batts are "Deep Cycle" designed & weigh over 70lbs.
Lifeline says 0.5% C20 End Absorption at like 14.3v & Rolls says 3% C20 at 14.7v. Interesting. "Conditioning" from lifeline shows 14.88v @ 160F for 8 hours.. Holy Smokes! All these batteries seem solid & informational material they have is priceless for getting them to last under your specific needs.

BFL13 wrote:
Good research on that talking to Rolls. Helps clarify things.

I'm learning!..Ha

BFL13 wrote:
Another point on deep cycling AGMs is what member LY has reported with his. He finds it gets "tired" after some shallow cycles, and a good deep cycle smartens it right up. He see this when it starts his van better--he uses his a both starting and house batt.

This is what is being told to me as "possible sulphation" or just not being fully charged during those Shallow cycles. Maybe both?

BFL13 wrote:
In my case, I don't go below 75% just to do a deep cycle. I do 50-90s while camping off grid with no solar, so I recharge starting in the Bulk stage. I leave the campground in the morning with the batts low and do the recharge to true full at home later that day.

You had me worried there for a bit but now I understand what your doing here. If what your doing is working.. carry on.

BFL13 wrote:
When off grid for a few weeks on solar, it is all shallow cycling if the sunshine holds. So now you have to create a deep cycle if it can't wait till you get home.

When were out overnight I can see about 50% SOC Under Load. I don't think we'll have much trouble. If it isn't the microwave the wife wants to bake a potato for 6 minutes it'll be the future coffee maker bringing it down. :B

BFL13 wrote:
Thanks again for getting that clarification from Rolls.

Thanks for all the help thus far!

[BFL13]

Good research on that talking to Rolls. Helps clarify things.

Another point on deep cycling AGMs is what member LY has reported with his. He finds it gets "tired" after some shallow cycles, and a good deep cycle smartens it right up. He see this when it starts his van better--he uses his a both starting and house batt.

That is akin to "exercising" a flooded deep cycle battery, which is in their specs to do every couple of months at least.

In my case, I don't go below 75% just to do a deep cycle. I do 50-90s while camping off grid with no solar, so I recharge starting in the Bulk stage. I leave the campground in the morning with the batts low and do the recharge to true full at home later that day.

I use those occasions to do the 20%, but first I need to keep the batts low until I get home so they will accept a Bulk stage. That is why I turn off the solar and alternator charging for that trip home.

When off grid for a few weeks on solar, it is all shallow cycling if the sunshine holds. So now you have to create a deep cycle if it can't wait till you get home.

Thanks again for getting that clarification from Rolls.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Charging CONCORDE LIFELINE at their max rate makes their cost worthwhile. Five hours versus ten. Then stare at the several thousand dollars for the generator. Myself, I stare at the thirty two dollars for fuel each time I need to drive to the gas station. Plus time plus hassle

This isn't a set piece evaluation. You need to do your own audit. Yes, half an acre of solar panels is neat until a tropical storm brings a week of dense clouds or golf ball size hail greets glass.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Configure the cost

Generator wearout
Fuel including transportation
Intangible: extra time babysitting running generator

Against the money and time installing new batteries

What do you come up with?

Versus saturated voltage bulk charging?

Prepare yourself for a shock.

[thewayweroll]

BFL13 wrote:
"all your learning" seems to have missed this--see 5.2.2

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

Our man Mex the battery guru, says this applies to all AGMs, not just Trojans. Lifelines are even more so where they can accept more than 20% in Bulk and ISTR have a "minimum charging rate" too.

Note your solar controller shows amps with loads and while camping you still have loads. You are trying to see only 1 amp for 200AH of batts, so your "parasitic loads" will be close to that. Hard to run the Rv and disconnect the batts entirely while they are being charged! Easy at home.

Rolls likes a 25% charging rate for Bulk but says you can use a lower rate but it will take longer. Wade down half way to the AGM instructions--very interesting!

https://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

"It is recommended that the initial charge current
is set at 20% of C/20 of the battery bank (min 10% / max 30% of C/20) in order to fully charge the batteries within a reasonable amount of time."

There are several mfg's as you state that show an ideal Charge rate for depleted batteries. This is reasonable to charge up in good timing & to take advantage of AGM lower internal resistance. They state the batteries at a highe charge rate. Trojan claims 20A Max Charge input. Rolls states 10% Min to 30% Max Charge.

The great thing about me is... I can learn new things!
The other great things is we're both not wrong in a way. I think were onto something here...ha ha Let's dig in...

Just spoke to Rolls technical dept. (Very knowledgeable) & you've made a point that I need to re-mention... Sulfating batteries & a doubled edge sword of what your doing.

5-15% Shallow discharges will require, 1-2 times per YEAR, bringing a cycle to 20%-50% to allow a higher current charge, as you mentioned, to keep sulfation down.

Here is the doubled edge sword:

Yes, Sulfation will be kept down w/routine deep discharges as you do. However, Doing it anymore than necessary shortens life cycles. It's a balance that tips in shallow discharges favor.

Based on their statements today your doing way too many intentional discharges for the sake of keeping the sulfation down AT THE EXPENSE OF CYCLE LIFE.

To sum: Your keeping sulfate at bay w/frequent deep cycles BUT your shortening their overall life by doing so anymore than necessary. There is no need to, routinely, discharge the batteries to below 75% SOC to see the 20% recommendation.

If shallow cycling You Only need deep cycle a couple times a year.

The winner: frequent Shallow Discharges w/2 20-50% annual deep cycles to see High currents will keep sulfate down & get you the longest life.

Quit discharging your batteries below 75% SOC so frequently. I need to make sure to discharge mine below 75% SOC a couple times a year. We'll both get the long life we paid for. It's a balance.

[BFL13]

"all your learning" seems to have missed this--see 5.2.2

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

Our man Mex the battery guru, says this applies to all AGMs, not just Trojans. Lifelines are even more so where they can accept more than 20% in Bulk and ISTR have a "minimum charging rate" too.

Note your solar controller shows amps with loads and while camping you still have loads. You are trying to see only 1 amp for 200AH of batts, so your "parasitic loads" will be close to that. Hard to run the Rv and disconnect the batts entirely while they are being charged! Easy at home.

Rolls likes a 25% charging rate for Bulk but says you can use a lower rate but it will take longer. Wade down half way to the AGM instructions--very interesting!

https://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

[time2roll]

I still have my Xantrex XADC-40 for emergency.

[thewayweroll]

BFL13 wrote:
Errin says he has a 35 if you call him.
I ran a couple of 100AH AGMs that said 27 amps charging limit. I used my 55 amper which was 1 amp over (1/2 amp per battery) I don't think the batteries noticed the extra amp! 🙂
The real trick is to charge them at 14.4ish all the way till amps taper to 0.5a/100AH, so 1 amp doing both together. That means you need an ammeter. I used my Trimetric for that.

After the amps get down to that, then reasonably soon afterwards, drop to the spec float voltage adjusted for temperature.

I apologize in advance for the obvious... some of it is just thinking out load...

Your talking about 1 amp over. 45a out of my solar system is the most I've seen so far after putting it together recently. As the earth tilts for higher sun angle I'm expecting slightly more than that 45a. How much more I don't know. Still 45+35=80a thats 20 amps over max battery spec. For Battery longevity sake the battery temperature plays a huge part of that life scale. I'm going to assume 30 amps max limit keeps safety vents shut. The more amps dumped in over a certain threshold there opens the safety vent & out goes the liquid drying out the agm batts.

I have a 60amp Renogy MPPT charge controller that shows me amperage & has RBTS (Remote Battery Temp Sensor) connected to the batts so it adjust for temp. Mines set for 3mv. My batts spec for 14.5-15.0v @25C cyclic charge. I set it for 14.6v. It goes into a "Absortion mode", Renogy calls it "Boost Mode", which is the same thing as bringing the voltage up, as you stated, then tapering down the current over a period of time.

I can set a timer on this Absorbtion mode from 1-10 hours. Currently set at 2 hours (default). I'll have to watch it over several days to get an idea of how many hours is needed in that mode to get down to about 1-2 amps then go into float mode.

BFL13 wrote:

1. They require a 20% charging rate when you can arrange that at least every few cycles. They have a max charging limit of about 30%.

No, 20% Charging rate is not a requirement. Batteries want to stay charged up at all times for long lifespan.
Although close to your 30% max statement my Specific Batt. Mfg. Says 30A Max that is 27.28% Splitting hairs maybe but I want to stay as close as possible to these ratings.

BFL13 wrote:
2. You can only get them to accept 20% when they are under about 75% SOC or above that SOC they will go straight to the Absorption Stage with tapering amps with those amps being under the 20% desired.

No, 20% Charging rate is not a requirement. In all my Learning, as a matter of fact, Shallow discharges equal Long battery lifespan in Deep cycle application.
Absorption State is where the real stuff happens. That is the top 20% to completely charge the battery. As long as that is being completed down to a taper than your battery is completely charged.

BFL13 wrote:
You need at least a 40 amp converter for when there is no sunshine, and the solar will only meet the 20% spec on a sunny mid-day period for a short time before amps drop as the sun gets

Yes, This will Especially be true In the winter time. I will need to use the converter/charger more during the winter months so I need to decide wisely.

BFL13 wrote:
You need to get the batts down under 75% to meet the 20%, and to get any time in Bulk at 20% you need the batts even lower in SOC at the start of the recharge.

No, There is no requirement to, unnecessarily, discharge below 75% just to meet a random 20% charge rate. In all my learning, as a matter of fact, Battery manufacturers are clear on one thing The SHOLLOWER the discharge the longer the lifespan.

The batteries want to be maintained & charged up towards the top & no lower than 30% discharge at all times for longest lifespan. That means shallow discharges are the best for longevity of batteries period.
If I use 25% or less discharge level everyday on these batteries they WILL last longer than 26%+ Discharge everyday. I'm not worried about BULK mode as you are.
It's the top 20% charge that completely charges the battery. That is done by Absorption Mode. So long as the batteries are fully charged soon as possible & I use Shallow Discharges my batteries WILL last longer than 26%+ discharge.
If my batteries go into bulk mode for short time & then Absortion Mode for the remaining top 20%.. GREAT! That means I'm shallow discharging them for longer lifespan. 🙂

BFL13 wrote:
I had this problem, and when leaving the campground for home with the batts nicely down below 75%, the drive home with alternator charging plus solar got them above 75%. So at home I did the recharge on shore power, but was not meeting the AGM 20% spec, only the 0.5a/100AH spec. What to do?
Before leaving the campground I disconnected solar and alternator charging so the batts stayed low. That means you need a way to do that. Solar is easy since you should already have a switch method between array and controller so you can disconnect the array before disconnecting the battery and VV as required by some controllers--Morningstars eg.

Think it's obvious by now but I must ask out loud...

You purposely disconnected your solar & alternator, intentionally left your batteries below 75% SOC, just to see some 20% "bulk up" charge rate?

In all my learning, as a matter of fact, the battery manufacturers state to charge up your batteries AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! This is what I try to accomplish.
I do NOT want the batteries to stay in a Low SOC for any longer than necessary. Every Battery spec I've looked at says charge up asap not keep them low intentionally. This can negatively impact lifespan.

BFL13 wrote:
Alternator charging disconnect depends on the rig. Pull the 7-pin or put in a switch on the line to the house batts if a MH.

If my batteries need a charge I would never prevent the battery from charging back up ASAP if any source is available to do so. I want my batteries charged back up asap for longer lifespan.

BFL13 wrote:
Now what about the other problem of going over 30% when on solar and converter and they are adding their amps? First, the battery has its own acceptance rate limiting where it will accept more amps at a lower SOC and at a higher voltage. Your voltage needs to be 14.4ish to meet the AGM spec, so that is fixed--set that for the controller and your adjustable converter you are getting. They will add their amps having the same set voltage.

14.4 is not within my AGM batt mfg. but close it's 14.5-15v@25c The battery may have it's own limit acceptance but the battery trying to resist the extra current, over maximum limit, can cause extra heat & displace some things inside. Higher Temperature negatively impacts lifespan. That is why I will charge it within it's Max spec. rating

BFL13 wrote:
If your converter will do at least the 20%, just use that and shut off the solar until amps taper well down, then shut off the converter.

I want to use the solar as the primary charge. That's the whole point of my Invested Heavily in solar/batteries. Most of how I roll is mostly away from shore power. If that is not enough in the day then I'll fire up the generator & top it off. This will happen some times in the winter travels.

BFL13 wrote:
And you do need the ammeter to see when you are down to 0.5a/100AH, but usually only at home, since you won't run the gen that long while camping--maybe doing 50-90s-- or on solar you will be doing more like 75-95s and never get them that full either. A Trimetric or similar monitor with shunt will do the ammeter job. (not the solar display which also shows the amps to loads--a monitor shows only battery)

My Phone shows me charge amperage, no ammeter necessary, & I can read it under load or no load conditions. It also shows me load amps in separate table. I will set the Absortion mode time to fully get the batteries current down to 1-2a then go into float.

BFL13 wrote:
BTW that is how solar kills batteries! Doing shallow cycles that never quite get the batts full, so they sulphate sooner than they would normally. You have to break that pattern and do a proper deep cycle to true full every so often, even if it is a PITA to organize.

Your saying If I, routinely, LIGHTLY discharge my batteries my solar panels somehow won't ever charge them back up completely b/c I'm not Deep Discharging them below 75% SOC in order to get some "required 20%" charge rate & will destroy my batteries?

Are you sure your not stuck in the old "Memory Effect" Days?

In Any case This is contrary to what battery manufacturers state.

In all my learning, as a matter of fact, shallow discharges equal LONGER Lifespan. When it comes to solar Shallow discharges not only charge up sooner but allows MORE available solar charging at the top to recharge the batts completely vs deep discharging them & getting a minimum 20% Charge rate.

Battery specs usually show batteries discharged no more than 30% get's long lifespan & best value for Deep Cycle application.

In all of my learning, the fact is, the least you discharge the battery the longer the lifespan.
Guess what gets the longest lifespan of my batteries... Hint: It isn't, routinely, discharging them down over 25%. My battery has 10 year lifespan@25c in float mode (which is the least discharged mode).

wa8yxm wrote:
The problem with the 6300 is three fold two of them are
Very slow charger
Does not know when to stop
The result is if the batteries need charging takes a long time
And if they don't it boils them dry

I've read about this. It was simple tech that did it's job but, perhaps, not well according to todays technology. I'll cut these old works horses a break & say both of mine lasted almost 3 decades w/occasional use.

dad4papa2 wrote:
When my 6300 was in my MH it was terrible at boiling the batteries dry. I had to watch them all the time and even lost a set do to my egnorance on the first set of new batterries I put in. got about 8 months out of them and they were gone.

I feel for your batts $RIP$ but these were what was on the market as factory equipment. I've read many pages on these units & people where not pleased w/their performance.

dad4papa2 wrote:
I purchased the Xantrex about 12 years ago and it has performed totally over my expectations!! I would buy another one if they still make them!!

Xantrex seems to be highly regarded in their field. Do you still run it?

[BFL13]

"....their 15a version as my 2 batteries have a 30a max 60a total charge limit. I will be getting about 45a through solar on the sunny days & when running the generator or shore it will kick on the 15a charger=60Amps total I don't want to fry these batteries they aren't cheap. "

AGMs do need special attention and a set-up for doing that.

1. They require a 20% charging rate when you can arrange that at least every few cycles. They have a max charging limit of about 30%.

2. You can only get them to accept 20% when they are under about 75% SOC or above that SOC they will go straight to the Absorption Stage with tapering amps with those amps being under the 20% desired.

You are concerned the 45amps of solar plus whatever the converter does will add to more than the 30% limit.

220AH of AGMs in sig, but above quote implies 200AH , so using 200, 20% is 40amps, and 30% is 60 amps as in the above quote.

You need at least a 40 amp converter for when there is no sunshine, and the solar will only meet the 20% spec on a sunny mid-day period for a short time before amps drop as the sun gets lower.

You need to get the batts down under 75% to meet the 20% at all, and to get any time in Bulk at 20% you need the batts even lower in SOC at the start of the recharge.

I had this problem, and when leaving the campground for home with the batts nicely down below 75%, the drive home with alternator charging plus solar got them above 75%. So at home I did the recharge on shore power, but was not meeting the AGM 20% spec, only the 0.5a/100AH spec. What to do?

Before leaving the campground I disconnected solar and alternator charging so the batts stayed low. That means you need a way to do that. Solar is easy since you should already have a switch method between array and controller so you can disconnect the array before disconnecting the battery and VV as required by some controllers--Morningstars eg.

Alternator charging disconnect depends on the rig. Pull the 7-pin or put in a switch on the line to the house batts if a MH.

Now what about the other problem of going over 30% when on solar and converter and they are adding their amps? First, the battery has its own acceptance rate limiting where it will accept more amps at a lower SOC and at a higher voltage. Your voltage needs to be 14.4ish to meet the AGM spec, so that is fixed--set that for the controller and your adjustable converter you are getting. They will add their amps having the same set voltage.

If your converter will do at least the 20%, just use that and shut off the solar until amps taper well down, then shut off the converter.

You could get a 55 or 60 amper and be ok as long as you have a 2000w gen or bigger. (A 1000w gen will only run a 40 amper at 14.4v or about that.)

And you do need the ammeter to see when you are down to 0.5a/100AH, but usually only at home, since you won't run the gen that long while camping--maybe doing 50-90s-- or on solar you will be doing more like 75-95s and never get them that full either. A Trimetric or similar monitor with shunt will do the ammeter job. (not the solar display which also shows the amps to loads--a monitor shows only battery)

BTW that is how solar kills batteries! Doing shallow cycles that never quite get the batts full, so they sulphate sooner than they would normally. You have to break that pattern and do a proper deep cycle to true full every so often, even if it is a PITA to organize.

[dad4papa2]

When my 6300 was in my MH it was terrible at boiling the batteries dry. I had to watch them all the time and even lost a set do to my egnorance on the first set of new batterries I put in. got about 8 months out of them and they were gone.

I purchased the Xantrex about 12 years ago and it has performed totally over my expectations!! I would buy another one if they still make them!!

good luck with your new one!!

Dad