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Disconnect load before stopping generator?

GordonThree
Explorer
Explorer
The topic says it all. This is in the rule book for several brands of generators. Its not in the book for my Yamaha, but Champion and Predator both mention it.

So my question is... lets say you run out of gas. The generator's going to stop, with the load connected. Is it ruined at this point? Will the sky start falling? Shouldn't the computer controlling the digital inverter be smart enough to see the engine is failing and disconnect the load?

I mean, it should only take a millisecond or two which is ages for a computer to sense the engine rpm are dropping and disconnect the load.

What happens exactly that they're concerned about?
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27 REPLIES 27

Chum_lee
Explorer
Explorer
"What happens exactly that they're concerned about?"

From a purely mechanical (non-electrical) temperature related issue: Heat soak

When you are running an air cooled engine (anything really) at high power loads, the engine is generating maximum heat/power. When you shut it down without a cooling period, the cooling systems stops, abruptly. However, the cylinder head, piston(s), exhaust valves continue to shed heat to the cooler parts of the engine without an operating cooling system. The oiling system is also shut off. Under some conditions, the engine oil, which also serves as coolant, especially in an air cooled engine, can overheat and coke. It doesn't happen all at one time/overnight, but over time, many an air cooled engine, especially with turbo chargers, overheat and burn the oil up creating sludge which can eventually kill the engine/turbo.

Many auto manufacturers of the late 70's and early 80's learned their lesson BIG TIME with their turbo charged cars that weren't equipped after run cooling systems. Premature turbo failure (under factory warranty) was common because owners typically shut the engines off without a cool down period. This eventually led the big push to modern synthetic oils which could handle higher temperatures without coking up.

My first boss had the habit of chopping the throttles on his Cessna 310 (twin air cooled engines) when descending from 12,000 feet @ 65% power at well below freezing. As a young pilot with more mechanical knowledge than flying time, I told him that was a bad idea. He laughed saying, "Naaahhhhhh, it's fine, I do it all the time." He stopped laughing when he got the $25,000 bill for multiple cracked cylinders/pistons/exhaust manifolds. He was lucky to make it home safely. For engines, shock cooling/heat soaking is NOT a good thing.

Chum lee

jodeb720
Explorer
Explorer
Many years ago, Prof95 did an analysis on this exact subject.

I'm not an engineer, but his argument went something like this:

when a generator is shut down/runs out of gas under load - as the motor spins down the generator attempts to compensate for the loss of power with a spike of current out of the generator head.

His argument was, it probably won't blow anything out but it's putting a strain on the components that's unnecessary.

If Mr. Wizard is correct for his Champion, then the inverter will recognize a loss in rotation and will disconnect to protect itself.

For me, I just disconnect completely from my Eu2000 let the engine idle for 30 seconds or so and then shut down the generator.

Again - it may not be necessary, but why take a chance and stress the components?

hotpepperkid
Explorer
Explorer
We had a saying at the phone Co. graceful and ungraceful. Disconnect the power before pulling a card or just pull out a card under power. I built a box with 30A twist lock and 50A socket with a switch and V/A meter so I can disconnect the load before turning on or off the gen.
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joebedford
Nomad II
Nomad II
"computer controlling the digital inverter"

How retro.

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Field forcing is a generator killer. My little KATO has six 1000PIV 150 amp rated rectifiers which is overkill times 4 the maximum possible field primary exciter potential. But the Delco H9000 regulator ramps down softly as it approaches 55 Hz. No free lunches it is still bad for the loads when an uncontrolled spin-down occurs.

I still unload the generator before shutdown and it has a turbo prtection 5-minute timer borrowed from a White Freighliner chassis.

Matt_Colie
Explorer II
Explorer II
The old Onans were famous for blowing out the bridge for the field when shut down with much load on. That thing was not easy to get at most times.

Many of the less primitive units still have trouble because the fancy output voltage regulation system doesn't know it is being shut down and the system kills itself trying to hold the output up.

Matt
Matt & Mary Colie
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MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
Only thing I can think of
Is that there was a temperature control connection for the AGS right that says we need the a/C start the genny

Doesn't that same control keep the genny running until a low temp setting has been reached ? And maybe even for a specific time duration
Which means the a/C would either be off, or at a minimum blower load,
Not running the compressor,
Maybe somebody here can give us an answer
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

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pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Since MrWizard has the Champion 3400, he does not need to disconnect loads for spin down. The Champion does it for him.

4x4van wrote:
MrWizard wrote:
4x4van wrote:
The idea that load must be removed prior to starting/stopping a generator seems to fly in the face of AGS systems used to keep an RV cool (for pets, for example) while the owner is not there.


NO..it doesn't ... think about it

the ATS in the RV does not connect the RV to generator until after the the generator has started running, there is NO load on the RV generator until the ATS closes, then the A/C can come on
And when the generator stops?
Regards, Don
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4x4van
Explorer III
Explorer III
MrWizard wrote:
4x4van wrote:
The idea that load must be removed prior to starting/stopping a generator seems to fly in the face of AGS systems used to keep an RV cool (for pets, for example) while the owner is not there.


NO..it doesn't ... think about it

the ATS in the RV does not connect the RV to generator until after the the generator has started running, there is NO load on the RV generator until the ATS closes, then the A/C can come on
And when the generator stops?
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Sandia_Man
Explorer II
Explorer II
On our onboard genny there were a couple of instances where my DW had turned off the genny while under heavy load, as well as started the Onan with a heavy load. Thankfully all was well after those episodes, I subsequently explained the reasoning why those actions can cause damage, although for the most part we always have some nominal load when turning the genny off or on.

After a decade of dutiful service from our Onan, which was overkill most of the time anyways, we decided to purchase a portable inverter genny that could run our RV AC unit while being fuel efficient and less noisy. We picked up a Champion inverter genny with remote start. When using the remote loads do not need to be removed, loads do need to be removed for electric or pull cord start up.

RLS7201
Explorer
Explorer
MrWizard wrote:
4x4van wrote:
The idea that load must be removed prior to starting/stopping a generator seems to fly in the face of AGS systems used to keep an RV cool (for pets, for example) while the owner is not there.


NO..it doesn't ... think about it

the ATS in the RV does not connect the RV to generator until after the the generator has started running, there is NO load on the RV generator until the ATS closes, then the A/C can come on


But the AGS does shut down the generator with the A/C load connected, which is the topic.

Richard
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ppine
Explorer II
Explorer II
Learn to be easy on machinery. Shut down the load. Let the machine idle and cool off. This works for truck engines, generators, etc. It is very important with solar controllers to shut them down in the right order for instance. Never disconnect from the battery side with power coming from your solar panels.

Walaby
Explorer II
Explorer II
Probably written for the one time a generator broke because of sudden shutdown and someone complained and got it replaced.

Now the lawyers ensure that text is there to protect themselves.

Mike
Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
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wa8yxm
Explorer III
Explorer III
To the generator a tripped breaker looks like a normal shutdown of load.

There are several factors.. Traditional generators when they are shut down do some funky stuff that in THEORY can damage the loads (I am ordering a new start cap for one A/C today. that may be why) but in truth the danger is slight. Also there is a SLIGHT danger to the genny.

INverter generators when they shut down generall do it HARD (Like a breaker tripping) they just flat shut off.. But here the key phrase is I THINK THAT IS HOW THEY WORK. no guarantee.

But LAWYERS review owner's manuals and the precautions therein before printing.
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