Generator and Surge guard

[icanon]

Question for everyone who uses an inverter generator.
Do you use a surge guard when running a generator or is it not neccessary?
Reason why I know many of you use one to protect a/c from low voltage etc. so is it required? I'm talking surge guard that are not permanently installed, I'm asking about the portable ones.

Thanks

[Winged_One]

SoundGuy wrote:
However, since Progressive mentions only the Yamaha EF2000is as potentially having a waveform issue & not your EF3000iSEB, and you've been successfully doing this for 3 yrs now with no apparent problems, I'd be inclined to just continue on with what you've been doing.

Thanks. 🙂

[SoundGuy]

SoundGuy wrote:
It's good to hear that Winged One isn't having this issue with his Yamaha EF3000iSEB and to date it's not caused any problems with his EMS-HW50C, indicating this may be an anomaly with just the EF2000iS.

Winged One wrote:
Brings up a question. Should I just turn off the EMS when using the generator. Any real risk from the power generated by the Yamaha?

Switching your hard wire Progressive EMS to bypass still leaves the surge protection portion of the device active and unfortunately it's that circuit which is most susceptible to damage from a non-sinusoidal waveform so the only way to truly protect it is to remove it entirely. However, since Progressive mentions only the Yamaha EF2000is as potentially having a waveform issue & not your EF3000iSEB, and you've been successfully doing this for 3 yrs now with no apparent problems, I'd be inclined to just continue on with what you've been doing.

[Winged_One]

SoundGuy wrote:
It's good to hear that Winged One isn't having this issue with his Yamaha EF3000iSEB and to date it's not caused any problems with his EMS-HW50C, indicating this may be an anomaly with just the EF2000iS.

Brings up a question. Should I just turn off the EMS when using the generator. Any real risk from the power generated by the Yamaha?

[road-runner]

Of the Hondas, AFAIK only the ex350 is MSW. There are also Honda generators with cycloconverters. I wonder what the EMS would think of them?

[SoundGuy]

gatorcq wrote:
thank you for the insight, but the Honda is also a MSW, is it not?

I have no idea which Honda generator you're referring to but the current Honda Generator Brochure indicates that every model, regardless of just which series it's in or what it's intended purpose is, outputs a sine wave signal. One could use any Honda genset they want but in the RV world it seems almost everyone uses one of the EU series inverter gensets such as the EU2000i or EU3000iS which produce sine wave signals as good or better than your local power utility. One would expect this of other competing brands but apparently the Yamaha EF2000iS which is also an inverter genset may be an exception, with Progressive saying it's sine wave output deteriorates to a modified sine wave under some circumstances and it's that MSW signal that doesn't play well with their EMS units. It's good to hear that Winged One isn't having this issue with his Yamaha EF3000iSEB and to date it's not caused any problems with his EMS-HW50C, indicating this may be an anomaly with just the EF2000iS.

[road-runner]

Read your generator instructions on why bonding is not a good idea when running electrical hand tools.
Randy

Good luck with that one! Of Honda, Yamaha, Kipor, and Robin-Subaru, none of the inverter generator manuals say a peep about bonding. They do mention grounding. Yamaha and Kipor require an earth ground. Robin-Subaru requires an earth ground if the connected load is earth grounded. Honda says to consult an electrician, inspector, or local agency about grounding. You must have run across the rare manual that discusses bonding.

[randallb]

I just thought I would chime in. I purchased a "cheap" Sportsman 3200W generator with RV connector to use in very limited circumstances with our new 30A trailer. When I hooked it up everything worked great but when I tried to use my Progressive Industries PT-30C it would not trip on. I now use a 15A male plug with the ground and neutral connected, as per PI, plugged in to one of the outlets on the face of the genny to bond the neutral and ground. I also run a 3' grounding rod off of the ground lug on the face of the genny. I want to run my PT30C with the generator because it is a cheap generator and if it decides to go bonkers I will be protected. When it is time to use the generator for running electrical tools on the property I just unplug the bonding plug and all is good. Read your generator instructions on why bonding is not a good idea when running electrical hand tools.
Randy

[Winged_One]

SoundGuy wrote:

Winged One wrote:
Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.

Yeah, but are you also using a Progressive EMS? :@

Yes, the EMS-HW50C.

[gatorcq]

thank you for the insight, but the Honda is also a MSW, is it not?

[SoundGuy]

Winged One wrote:
Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.

Yeah, but are you also using a Progressive EMS? :@

[Winged_One]

Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.

[SoundGuy]

gatorcq wrote:
so, why the disclaimer only really on the yamaha?

Obviously only Progressive would know the real answer to this question. My own guess is they saw an unusual number of EMS failures, were able to link those failures to use with a Yamaha EF2000iS generator, and upon further investigation found unusual waveform characteristics from this particular generator that could damage their EMS units. Keep in mind that Progressive's official position is that their EMS units are designed to protect RV electrical systems when being fed by a conventional campground power source and not specifically from a generator, despite the fact that in reality many owners do want to sometimes power their rig with a genset. Regardless, for the company to officially take a position on this by posting an online disclaimer that voids the lifetime warranty on any of their EMS units if used with this particular genset is significant. In one of my emails to the company I had asked about using my Honda EU2000i with my new EMS-HW30C and received the following reply -

"Concerning the use of a generator with an inverter, our EMS are designed to be used in the RV environment using a commercial power source. The hazard to our device when using an aftermarket generator, is that some provide a modified sine output, which can cause damage. Others provide a pure sine wave at all times, and others will switch to a modified sine wave under heavy loads. The portion of our units than can be damaged is the surge protect and is not bypassed using the bypass switch. Since there are many brands of generators on the market and numerous models I can not offer specific guidance on which one to select."

Based on this I'm guessing they found that the Yamaha EF2000iS was one of those models, and although designed to output a pure sine wave signal this particular model does under some circumstances output some version of modified sine wave that doesn't sit well with their EMS units. What I can definitively say now - because I've done it - is that if I bond the floating neutral output of my own Honda EU2000i my new EMS does pass voltage to it's output and on to the trailer whether the genset is running on ECO, full speed, or anywhere in between, loaded or unloaded, and therefore as far as I can tell it's safe to use this combination to power my trailer. Unfortunately, unless any prospective owner is aware of this Progressive / Yamaha disclaimer, they could well go ahead and use an EF2000iS anyway and blow out their new Progressive EMS, with no recourse because the company has made it clear they will void warranty on the unit.

[gatorcq]

so, why the disclaimer only really on the yamaha?

[Bobbo]

A definitive answer would pin them down in the event of a lawsuit.