Progressive surge protecter / EMS and inverters

[Larryect]

I was wondering if any one has noticed the owners manual for the EMS-HW30C, 30 amp progressive surge and voltage protector states to NOT plug it into an inverter?

I am wondering if this includes our inverter generators, true sine wave inverters etc.

Have any of you investigated this, or have you used the unit with an inverter?

.

[Larryect]

The small Yamahas have a floating ground. They are not bonded.

[wa8yxm]

GaPete wrote:
Thanks for the education guys. I have toted 2 Yamahas for 2 years and have yet to need them. Better build me a plug to tote around too.

This can also cause a problem.. Just so you know

IF the Ground is NC in the generator no problem
If the ground is connected to the frame in the generator, It MIGHT cause issues.

I know how I'd do it if I were building a generator adapter but I would rather not post as it's very non-code.

[Larryect]

Nice to know. Thanks.

[TurnThePage]

Larryect wrote:

BillyW wrote:

Larryect wrote:
I carry a Yamaha 2400 generator, that according to Yamaha is MSW, safe for electronics.

I just installed a stand alone XANTREX 1000 watt Prosine True sine wave inverter... My inverter probabaly makes a better sine wave than my generator.

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure the Yamaha 2400 inverter generator is pure sinewave not MSW. I also think it's hardware is VERY similar to their 2800 series inverter gen, which I've connected to an oscope and have seen that the output was cleaner than our local utility, even under load. It looked virtually perfect.

I guess we are both a little off. Per their web site:
"•The EF2400iSHC uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) to produce high-quality electricity comparable to the power supplied by public utilities. Use this generator with confidence as a power source for microcomputer-controlled appliances and other devices with built-in computer functions."

Yamaha site

For all intents and purposes it's PSW. The oscope shows a totally beautiful sinewave. Me thinks PWM is probably as close as you're going to get.

[Larryect]

BillyW wrote:

Larryect wrote:
I carry a Yamaha 2400 generator, that according to Yamaha is MSW, safe for electronics.

I just installed a stand alone XANTREX 1000 watt Prosine True sine wave inverter... My inverter probabaly makes a better sine wave than my generator.

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure the Yamaha 2400 inverter generator is pure sinewave not MSW. I also think it's hardware is VERY similar to their 2800 series inverter gen, which I've connected to an oscope and have seen that the output was cleaner than our local utility, even under load. It looked virtually perfect.

I guess we are both a little off. Per their web site:
"•The EF2400iSHC uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) to produce high-quality electricity comparable to the power supplied by public utilities. Use this generator with confidence as a power source for microcomputer-controlled appliances and other devices with built-in computer functions."

Yamaha site

[TurnThePage]

Larryect wrote:
I carry a Yamaha 2400 generator, that according to Yamaha is MSW, safe for electronics.

I just installed a stand alone XANTREX 1000 watt Prosine True sine wave inverter... My inverter probabaly makes a better sine wave than my generator.

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure the Yamaha 2400 inverter generator is pure sinewave not MSW. I also think it's hardware is VERY similar to their 2800 series inverter gen, which I've connected to an oscope and have seen that the output was cleaner than our local utility, even under load. It looked virtually perfect.

[Larryect]

Might want to test your contingecy planning before you need it......

[GaPete]

Thanks for the education guys. I have toted 2 Yamahas for 2 years and have yet to need them. Better build me a plug to tote around too.

[otrfun]

GaPete wrote:

GaPete wrote:
OTRFUN.....what do you mean by bonding plug?
Thanks

Based on Larryetc's post I think I see what you are talking about. A plug for gen recept with grd/neutral bonded????

Ref the bonding plug. If you don't use one with your generator more than likely your PI EMS will return an E2 or Open Ground error and will not allow any power into your TT. You do have the option of turning off ALL EMS protection and allowing unprotected power to enter your TT from your generator rather than use the bonding plug.

The bonding plug I use is a dummy 110 volt plug with the neutral bonded/connected to the ground. I plug the dummy bonding plug into the vacant 110 plug on my generator before I power my TT with it.

This bonding plug is very controversial. Some say it's unsafe, others say the risk is minimal. All I can say is google the pros and cons and make your own decision.

[Larryect]

GaPete - Correct. These little generators have an un-bonded neutral/ground and the EMS units will see that as a no-ground fault.


Personally I agree with mlts22. I think the EMS wouldn't have a clue it was plugged into the Xantrex.... I suspect it is a blanket warning about cheap inverters - which I have used for other things before.....

[GaPete]

GaPete wrote:
OTRFUN.....what do you mean by bonding plug?
Thanks

Based on Larryetc's post I think I see what you are talking about. A plug for gen recept with grd/neutral bonded????

[Larryect]

Thanks for the replies.

I installed the hard wired unit into my trailer: Trailer plug > EMS > Distribution box. No transfer switch. No built in generator.

I carry a Yamaha 2400 generator, that according to Yamaha is MSW, safe for electronics.

I just installed a stand alone XANTREX 1000 watt Prosine True sine wave inverter. Permanetly hooked to the 2 group 27 marine batteries the trailer came with. But, not tied into the 120v AC system.

So, a couple of thoughts were: My inverter probabaly makes a better sine wave than my generator. But, there was no warning not to use an inverter generator....... Also, If I want to run on battery, I could run extension cords into the trailer and run specifc items. Or, I could plug the trailer into the inverter, shut off the converter, fridge and water heater, and then run what I want to run (CPAP, TV DVD), without having cords all over.

I called Prosine today and a technician called me back. He said the "Inverter" generators are fine. And even said I would need to bond the ground to neutral or bypass the unit to get it to work. But, they had not done testing on the "true Sine Wave" inverters. Although he knew some people that have tried it with no ill affects, he couldn't advise me to do it.

[GaPete]

OTRFUN.....what do you mean by bonding plug?
Thanks

[wa8yxm]

This is sometimes confusing

I will describe two line setups

Inverter----EMS(Surge Protector)----RV

Park Pedistal---EMS(As above)----RV--Sub branch--Inverter--Sub panel--Sub-sub loads

The first is a DO NOT, (With exceptions) the second is the proper way

In short DO NOT plug the EMS into a MSW inverter.. It won't pass MSW and may be harmed by it.

With TRUE SINE inverters.. I am withholding comment other than the fact is. it is not needed.

The EMS is supposed to protect you against High/low Voltage or frequency or bad waveform (MSW inverters) in some models.

With an TSW inverter all it is going to do is waste power.. So do not use it, The reason for this is the frequency is set by a very solid reference (likely crystal) and likely will be as good as or better than a good power company.

Likewise if the voltage goes out of range the inverter itself will shut down (or should). So the EMS is just going to sit there and suck a few watts.


However none of that really applies as we do not normally plug our RV's into an inverter (Unless it is an INVERTER generator and those are TSW) (And some models do not have that good a voltage regulation) . Inverters INSIDE the RV you won't be plugging the EMS into, you will be plugging them (Via the RV's shore cord) into the EMS. That is allowed.