TOOLS I Have A Question

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Germany is more expensive than the United States. Wages, taxes, basic standard of living. Right?

Then please tell me why WILLI HAHN can manufacture screwdrivers and pliers far superior in quality to Snap On or Mac tools that cost WAY MORE then tools that are shipped thousands of miles across the Atlantic Ocean and marketed here?

There is no USA competition for these tools -- Knipex is considerably more expensive than WiHa. I have no idea where Knipex is made.

There is no other word I can substitute for the following one: The USA is prostituting our sense of integrity of quality for the almighty dollar.

There are a few holdouts. Caterpillar, 3M, General Electric (for medical) and Westinghouse (For large generators and transformers).

Siemens is kicking our *** world wide for electrical assembles and again this is a German enterprise. B*A*R*T*? A Siemens project. The San Diego Red Trolley? Again Siemens.

Too much of what I read on this forum are problems the result of which are due to shoddy design and manufacturing. Too many products have USA brand names and garbage Chinese design.

Why am I fuming? I lost a forty dollar frying pan this morning. An elite brand. The handle came off the hard way with absolutely no way to repair it. Elite USA brand name -- manufactured in China. We canno make a @#$%^&! forty dollar frying pan. Gimmee a break.

[pnichols]

philh wrote:
Consumers want cheap junk, they drive manufacturers decisions.

I need a reliable 1/2' drive Torque wrench, what's a good quality reasonably priced brand. Ok with mechanical.

You might want to take a look at MAC Tools: https://www.mactools.com/en-us/buy-now

[T18skyguy]

philh wrote:
Consumers want cheap junk, they drive manufacturers decisions.

I need a reliable 1/2' drive Torque wrench, what's a good quality reasonably priced brand. Ok with mechanical.

Take a look at Proto. I have a couple of them. Good quality, not cheap junk, but not Snap-On price either.

[monkey44]

pnichols wrote:

Beentherefixedthat wrote:
It's not WHERE it's made...it's about where and who designs it and sets the manufacturing specifications.

Well ...that's some Tier 2 reasons as to what controls quality of our products and services here in the U.S..

The single Tier 1 reason as to why a lot of our stuff is "low quality" is because we as consumers enable low quality by continuing to buy it.

All of us are experiencing the enemy of high quality and must recognize it for what it is ... us. If we were to stop buying low quality than guess what ... it would go away.

Yup, both comments are accurate in USA today - one problem is we can't FIND quality anymore ... even if you look. And so many items now are ONLINE ONLY, that when you go into a store, it has cheapest version, and then you cannot 'inspect' an item you want to buy that is often a more expensive price but nearly identical item. "OH, we can order that for you >>>>". Why can't I see IT ... Semantic Marketing abounds.

Add to that, and built-in expense for "free shipping" and the number of returns due to embellished marketing terms and lack of quality.

If it wasn't so serious, I'd have to laugh when we get a box labeled Made in USA", and a product labeled "Made in China" ... which one is made in USA, the box of course.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Westinghouse. The plastic handle disassociated itself from the riveted aluminum tang on the 12 pan. These saucepans and frying pans cost more than Cuisinart, their non-stick lining IMHO is superior to what Cuisinart uses, the fixture is heavier in weight.

Having a dual Masters degree gained at Stanford I am familiar with the interactions of corporations, government, consumers and investors. Only government does not fear loss of investor confidence. Consumers I would believe do not WISH for something like a Craftsman product to fail, yet it has in a double faceted manner. Loss of consumer, then loss of investor confidence.

Sears faces untenable overhead. They and Macys formed the anchor of countless shopping centers in the USA. When Sun Valley Mall was built in Concord, California, the lease for the Macy's Store was $22,000 per month. Now the Mall sits abandoned and the monthly rent equaled 330,000 month. Why was the rent/lease forced to increase by 150%? When the salesforce first appeared they earned a bit over 3.00 hour. Now it sits at (I think) $16.00 hour. The standard of living for today's workers is poverty. When the wage was 3.00 hour the price for a gallon of gasoline for thirty one point nine cents per gallon -- does a person have to be a scholar to ratio sixteen dollars gross income to 4.00 hour gasoline?

The geniuses at the today's helm have not a clue as to the effects of soaring energy prices on the economy. My professor would have smacked his birch point at a knothead who missed the point and instead factored the health of a company due to skewed analysis that develops an unhealthy theory around Profit to Earnings Ratio due to fiscal mismanagement.

What WAS missing from the scene forty-five years ago was intense pressure from investors and the utter greed of speculators. When corporate structure shrinks it is not a sin, when corporate structure shrinks, ratings decline from AA-- to BBB+ AND the earnings structure shrinks, fewer stores, with each remaining selling less earning less margins, then that is a crisis. There are a lot of components missing here such as lenders basing points upon analysis but let's stick with these.

I could get into an analysis as to why COSTCO is so robust, and other merchandisers but let's not but say we did...

Today's schools send their children to school 20% to learn, 80% to be rid of them for seven hours. Juvenile babysitting. The parents are interested in working less and making more. When the legalization of a new intoxicant becomes the focus of of blue collar society this is a nuclear strike imminent for that society. My father walked me through shipyards focusing on WHY algebra, geometry and calculus was so important, why chemistry and electricity was so important to learn. He sis not sit on his AS$ and demand that schools babysit me year after year. His goal was to become Industrial Manager of the 12th Naval District. Insure private contractor refit and repair of naval vessels met USN specifications. It impressed his number 2 son.

The USA is setting itself up -- nay I'll get rude -- dropping it's pants and bending over in a focused attempt to make itself vulnerable to the extreme. It happened in the 1920's and then the country had an excuse of a much lower percentage of college educated work force. Books were cooked, speculation was leveraged to insane levels and the depression ensued.

Our country should not base it's entire economic structure on a vulnerable industry like computer hardware and software. Yet it is. Agriculture now has to focus on it's vulnerability to speculators because banks have zero expertise in agra/economics.

The last serious test of a thoroughly skewed economics health management was in the 1970's. How many of you endured STAGFLATION? Where rampant energy speculation added misery to a psychosis economic picture that had no exits. Stagflation ended when the price of crude oil crashed.

[pnichols]

Beentherefixedthat wrote:
It's not WHERE it's made...it's about where and who designs it and sets the manufacturing specifications.

Well ...that's some Tier 2 reasons as to what controls quality of our products and services here in the U.S..

The single Tier 1 reason as to why a lot of our stuff is "low quality" is because we as consumers enable low quality by continuing to buy it.

All of us are experiencing the enemy of high quality and must recognize it for what it is ... us. If we were to stop buying low quality then guess what ... it would go away.

[Beentherefixedt]

There is so much lack of understanding of manufacturing, economics and global economics written above it's breathtaking.

But Mexicowanderers most interesting point was lost on most. That is this: Why can generally more expensive European based manufacturers make tools, machinery, electrical components and other things while paying higher wages, more vacation time for it's workers, up to a year of time off for new mothers and 6 months for Fathers and great working conditions to boot? And in many cases they export those products to the US at competitive prices? And they still make a profit. American companies will tell you they can't do it, They can. But should they?

There are many reasons but in my judgement it is the societal and corporate culture that keeps CEO pay at reasonable levels with the pay of the general workforce, companies tend to focus on the Long Term instead of short term shareholder gains and they are happy to own a business to make a good living...not necessarily with the goal of getting rich as so many Americans see things.

Now on the other point he makes: The assumption that America can no longer make these things is a false construct and a straw man argument. The reason that we no longer make some of these things is that Capital...Money seeks it's most efficient use. Ask yourself this: Would you rather have the relatively good paying jobs that the people of Northern Indiana enjoy Assembling RV's a primarily HAND Made effort, OR the lower paid job standing at a machine for 8 hours while it stamps out the tool used by the better paid assembler?

But keep in mind the guy who DESIGNED the tool, a very good paying job, is here in the US as are the management, sales, distribution, the metallurgical expertise and manufacturing tool designers... and those are the kinds of jobs we need to keep.

The problem is not our inability to make things, it is that the REAL money is now in DESIGN and SERVICES. That is where our economy has been going for more than a generation. But our educational system and sadly many people have not been able to make the intellectual changes needed to get and keep the kinds of jobs that are the engine of this economy in the late 20th and early 21st century.

And this is why our Tech Sector (think Google, Microsoft and many others) need the H1B visa program to bring the right kind of skilled and educated workers from India, China and Europe. There are not enough Americans with the RIGHT kind of education and skills to fill the jobs that are out there.

Now if Mexicowanderer would tell us the brand name of that skillet...we might have some context. Over more than 30 years I have never had a handle fall off my set of "near Commercial grade" Cuisinart pans. And I use them in the oven at over 450deg all the time. Quality is out there and it can be made ANYWHERE. It's not WHERE it's made...it's about where and who designs it and sets the manufacturing specifications.

[agesilaus]

The utility where I worked provided Klein tools as the brand they carried in the warehouse.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The black tip was nitrided, heat treatment for alloy steel.
I have Klein crimpers and and an electrician's set of stripping knife and shears. Supposedly made in USA. I like the crimpers because they have a point in each crimp die. I noted the Swedish screwdriver handles are almost identical to the Wiha. Fewer blisters.

[Big_Katuna]

In the telephony industry back when a new VW Westphalia was $4000, I used Klein tools. Wire cutters, flush cutters, sheath, screwdrivers, wiring scissors.

I stilll have some. Don’t know if the quality is still there.

[agesilaus]

The best screwdriver set I've ever had, is strangely, from Sweden. Tough bright steel shank with the last centimeter or so a welded on dark hard steel tip. They are as sharp as ever and I must have had them over 20 years. I have no idea where I got them. They have a black plastic knurled handle.

LOL here they are: Kamasa Tools My handles aren't rubberized must be an improved version.


My gripe with any vice grip is that when I carry them in the back of my truck on back roads the screw vibrates out and vanishes. Turns the tool to junk tho I see you can buy the vice grip brand screws on Amazon. Edsel Murphy's Kobold vanished the screws you know. Just like when you drop a screw or bolt on the ground while working the kobold grabs it in midair and disappears it.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I have a family 1,445 miles south of the border. To live on a gringo comparative standard of living, Mexico is far more expensive than the USA. I go months, sometimes longer than a year without speaking English. Contributing to this forum keeps my writing vocabulary tuned up. What I didn't realize that the ability to write has little to do with the ability to speak correctly.

I have said this before and I will say it again -- When people go to Atlantic City, Vegas, or Reno, dump hundreds if not thousands of dollars on the slots and tables, then spend hours waiting in line to save eight dollars on a buffet it does not reflect favorably as far as intelligence is concerned.

When a near-new pair of Snap-Off flush cutting diagonal cutting pliers went bad on me last January it stopped dead-in-it's-tracks an important job until they can be replaced. Larger Snap-Off dykes are OK but a pair of 1/3rd the price Crescent compound pliers just beats the snot out of the red handled dykes. And there is nothing from japan, taiwan or korea that can vie with Wiha performance or durability.

Snap-Off combination wrenches are excellent. Wish I could say the same for their ratchets. I have used their screwdrivers but the flutes on their phillips screwdrivers warp and their square and triangular handles are utter failures for lessening the chance of getting blisters on the palms. I had Snap-Off do a one-off 3/8" swivel ratchet with a square plastic handle like their screwdrivers. It did fine until the gears stripped. They are too slow on the uptake to produce helical cut ratchet gears.

Properly alloyed and heat-treated needle nose pliers do not lose the aggressiveness of the knurl of the tips. My Snap-Off needle nose pliers lost their sharpness while doing electrical work -- not impressive.

After trying everything on planet earth I came across Milwaukee Vise Grips. Their jaw teeth have not gotten dull like the others. Now I need to find out if Milwaukee makes needle nose Vise Grips.

My father had an impressive set of PLUMB brand tools. They were stolen from his parking space storage locker in the 80's. They were fine tools.

Worm drive Skil saws are wonderful as are Stihl chainsaws. I had a belt-driven Honda 1,200 watt generator that never failed to start on the 2nd yank. I have had Tecumseh and Striggs and Bratton engines that always failed to start on less than 10 yanks. The Tecumseh was so bad, I got angry and set up an impact wrench socket and on cool wet days I would spin the motor until it cried uncle and fired off. Absolute junk.

But it was the last, never used commercially hundred and forty dollar Snap -Off ratchet that broke that waxed my A$S. Five trips to the USA and five failures to locate a mobile dealer. Snap-Off wants ME to pay shipping both ways $24.00

[westernrvparkow]

rightlaneonly wrote:

2oldman wrote:

joshuajim wrote:
The problem is AMERICAN companies that want the cheapest produced products that result in the greatest profit.

The problem is American consumers who want the cheapest possible products.

Amen to that. We want quantity not quality:R

Even the tool world evolves. I guess I could have spent $100 for the absolute best Phillips head screwdriver ever made, and now I would be the proud owner of a near dinosaur. My wonderful Dewalt 18 volt tools are also on the endangered species list, 19.2 lithium has replaced them, so now either my batteries or my tools are soon to be extinct (yes, I know I can buy a battery adapter, but that is stopgap at best). Specialty tools are needed for many repairs and usually they are used once a year. If your tools are your livelihood then maybe buying the best quality makes sense, but for the vast amount of consumers cheaper is usually the sensible choice.

[pnichols]

agesilaus wrote:
Not to start another mine is better than your war. But I just bought the RV in my sigline and it bucks the trend of cheaply built. I wonder every time I walk into the door and just feel how it feels when it slowly swings open on massive hinges. Some US manufacturers still produce high quality work, many of them actually.

That's how we feel about our 2005 Class C by Winnebago. But unlike Arctic Fox, Winnebago may these days - not sure - be putting out lower quality than they did up to just a few years ago.

[pnichols]

The mechanics at the top notch service facility for our daily driver order their tools from these guys. They probably still produce good products ... click around at the website to check out their warranties: https://www.mactools.com/en-us

[philh]

Consumers want cheap junk, they drive manufacturers decisions.

I need a reliable 1/2' drive Torque wrench, what's a good quality reasonably priced brand. Ok with mechanical.