Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[Wadcutter]

ShapeShifter wrote:

I appreciate the efforts you've been making in this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time or trying to be argumentative. That's not my intent.

I understand and didn't take it that you were trying to give me a hard time.

blt2ski wrote:

I've seen roads around here and elsewhere where do to frost heaving, you are limited for certain periods of time until the ground thaws completely too.

I can make it even more confusing. Many states, IL included, have a 20K/34K/80K weight limit but that only applies to interstate highways and certain state roads. Most roads are limited to 18K/32K/73280. So when getting off the big road to go to a campground most likely the legal weight is 18K/32K/73280, not that it would still matter to most RVers.
Then as you mention there are a lot of secondary roads restricted during certain times of year.

[blt2ski]

SHape shifter,

In the end, even for myself, I am not trying to argue with wadcutter or an equal. The idea, is to get wording such that we all understand, to the best of our abilities, what the actual weight laws are, and what we will have to do etc, if caught overweight! and it is VERY apparent, that for those with a little reading, will realize, manufactures ratings are not the law, it is based to protect the roads. Not the other vehicles etc on the road. From what I can tell, many of the weight laws go back to "cart/horse paths" in the mid to late 1800's. Some states like mine, ie washington, you still find these terms in the laws! Interstate, state highways are not part of the law per say. The laws were set up to keep folks from rutting dirt and crushed rock roads and early bridges/elevated structures from carts etc being towed by horses/oxen and the like. The only way back then, was actual weight on the cart transfered to the road bed, as SAE and equal specs, were still a fig nutten of ones imagination!

BUT, with that, I would agree, that there are some poorly designed type A MH's, of some folks that do not distribute the load correctly, or look at the RA and say, I have a 25K GRAWR from manufacture, load it accordingly, and find out due to a fluke, they are overweight! They may or may not understand why. Initially I was a bit confused, but when I realized "what" the overweight laws where ment to protect, it started to make sense. Just the figuring out "which law" per say would effect on in a given situation. And to realize as that last link to the US DOT points out, the goal is not to fine folks per say for being overwieght, it is to get folks under legal max weights. Legal max, is also legal minimum excepting by the formula, or if a road has a max overall legal limit or what ever reason. I've seen roads around here and elsewhere where do to frost heaving, you are limited for certain periods of time until the ground thaws completely too.

Marty

[ShapeShifter]

Wadcutter wrote:

ShapeShifter wrote:

Then you haven't seen mine.

Gee, ya think? Only how many million total RVs in the US?

Yep, the odds of running into one are low. And I know you haven't seen mine since I've never been West of central OH! :W

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just wanted to let others reading this thread know that it is possible to have an RV that approaches or surpasses the 20K limit. I feel it's important since that is one regulation that does seem to apply even if you're not commercial. I agree, 99% of the people probably don't have to worry about it all. Of the remainder, some have to look into their actual weights and never have to give it a second thought, while some will have to always struggle with it. As the trend has been for units to keep getting heavier, the problems will only get worse. (Although with the recent fuel price and economy pressures, maybe that trend will slow down or reverse?)

However, if your rear axle is over 20K then you could have a problem if weighed more than you think. For example, let's say your rear axle weighs 23,000. The fine in IL for being 3000 lbs over is $165. If 3001 lbs it's $260. IL is cheap in that regard compared to some states. But the real problem would be after paying the fine. The fine is not a permit to move. The problem will be when forced to get legal weight before moving.

I understand what you're saying. I don't weigh myself on every trip, and I'm sure my weight distribution varies from time to time. If I end up being over on the rear axle, and if I get stopped, I will usually have a full water tank. That's about 800 pounds of weight that's pretty much over the rear axle that I can always dump in an emergency. Hopefully, if everything goes wrong and I'm over and get stopped, it won't be by much and that water will be enough weight that I can shed to become legal again.

I do keep an eye on it, but I'm not paranoid about it and don't lose sleep about it because I know I've got some water weight leeway if there is an "oops." The biggest problem I have is my DW, who can't understand why there are empty cabinets that she can't fill. (And who just recently asked if we could get a golf cart lift to hang on the back of the rig -- I said absolutely no way! :e)

I appreciate the efforts you've been making in this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time or trying to be argumentative. That's not my intent.

[Wadcutter]

ShapeShifter wrote:

Then you haven't seen mine.

Gee, ya think? Only how many million total RVs in the US?

I can't believe that my rig is the only one like this.

Since I most likely haven't seen your rig I don't know if yours is the only one like it or not. As I stated tho I have weighed a bunch of RVs and people were surprised when they found out they didn't weigh as much as they thought. If you've got the weight tickets then you know you've got a problem if you're over 20K.
However, if your rear axle is over 20K then you could have a problem if weighed more than you think. For example, let's say your rear axle weighs 23,000. The fine in IL for being 3000 lbs over is $165. If 3001 lbs it's $260. IL is cheap in that regard compared to some states. But the real problem would be after paying the fine. The fine is not a permit to move. The problem will be when forced to get legal weight before moving.

[ShapeShifter]

Wadcutter wrote:

ShapeShifter wrote:

But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!

Don't confuse "rating" with actual weight. 2 completely separate things. I've weighed several Class As who wanted their weight checked. Never ever saw one actually go over 20K on a single axle.

Then you haven't seen mine. I know the difference between ratings and actual weights, and I'm not confusing them here. Like I said above, it's hard to distribute the weight properly on my rig. Only light stuff goes in the back of my main basement compartment, and many of my cabinets in the back of the rig are mostly empty. It would appear that most of my CCC is on the front axle, and most of my storage space is by the rear axle. It's very hard for me to keep my rear axle under 20K, and I've got the weigh slips to show it.

I can't believe that my rig is the only one like this.

[Wadcutter]

ShapeShifter wrote:

But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!

Don't confuse "rating" with actual weight. 2 completely separate things. I've weighed several Class As who wanted their weight checked. Never ever saw one actually go over 20K on a single axle.

[ShapeShifter]

Wadcutter wrote:
As far as exceeding the 20K/34K/80K limits that's not likely with any RV. You're not going to be able to put 20K on a single RV or TV axle. The standard truck and RV tires and axlesaren't made to handle that much weight. Not that they couldn't legally carry the weight it's just that they're not constructed to carry that much weight.

I'll grant you that it's unlikely with any towed RV. I think your statement is valid considering that this is the "Tow Vehicles" forum, and therefore it's reasonable that you mean towed RVs.

But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!

[Wadcutter]

blt2ski wrote:
So in other words, all we have to really worry about, is staying under the 20K/34/80K limits, and we're fine!

Again, for registration it could depend on how much you have your vehicle registered for. It's not likely you'll exceed the minimum registered weights for states but if you had a particularly heavy TV and a really large, heavy 5er and you registered for the lightest weights then it might be possible to exceed your registered weights. Simple fix is just to register the vehicle for the proper weights. It's not an overweight issue, it's an issue of not paying enough tax for what is being hauled.
An example would be a state like WI. Use to be, and maybe still is, WI didn't not register small trailers. It was very common to see a popup or small travel trailer going down the road without a license plate. They were legal in WI and they could pull that trailer anywhere in the US and still be legal because they complied with WI law where they were from.
As far as exceeding the 20K/34K/80K limits that's not likely with any RV. You're not going to be able to put 20K on a single RV or TV axle. The standard truck and RV tires and axlesaren't made to handle that much weight. Not that they couldn't legally carry the weight it's just that they're not constructed to carry that much weight.
Same with 34K on a tandum axle. Just not going to see anywhere near that much weight in an RV. Even total weight of RV and TV won't be close to 34K let alone on a pair of axles.
Same with 80K. Just not going to have that much total weight.
I'm sure some people when they hook up to their 5er or trailer think they're hauling in the same weight class as the big semis they see on the road. Not even close. The tractor that pulls the semi trailer, without the trailer, will weigh more than the typical TV and 5er.
Think about this. Your ton Ford, Chevy, Dodge may weight about 8000 lbs. A 5er may average 12K, some a bit more, a whole lot of them less. If those were both loaded they would total about 20K. They would have 20K on 4 axles where legal weight would allow all of that on just one axle. If their total weight was 20K they could haul 4 times more and still be at 80K legal weight. To put it more in perspective, if it would fit, most people could put their entire household furnishings, everything they own, in that rig and still be under 80K. People don't realize just how much 80K weighs.
Where it is important to known your RV's weight is when getting off the beaten path and coming across roads and bridges that may have restricted weight limits. If you're out driving the back roads and come across a bridge posted something like "6 Ton Limit" then you'll need to know how much your rig weighs. If your total weight happen to be at 7 tons then it's not an overweight issue, it's an issue of being over the limit for an elevated structure. Your total weight may be legal for the road but the structure limits it. Still not an overweight, over the limit for the structure.

[blt2ski]

So in other words, all we have to really worry about, is staying under the 20K/34/80K limits, and we're fine! I knew the bride law only was what I could carry on a road, based on a algebraic formula, titles and registration were a different rule law.

For RV'rs, that will probably be the simplest thing, stay under those weights, don't worry about the rest, other than what the vehicle can actually carry in and of itself, which in most cases for us with DOT class 1-6 trucks, is less than what the road will handle.

[Wadcutter]

blt2ski wrote:
Ok, so what do you do in the case of Bert or Jim, who's registration does NOT show a GVW based on tax paid? Because they have not paid a tax? .

You don't worry about it because that's the requirement set up by their state. Nothing says a state has to license light trucks with a weight paid license. It's a tax, that's all it is. If a state chooses not to license by weight then that's entirely up to that state. Every other state has to honor what ever licensing their home state has for registration. The feds mandate that.
What's the weight paid fee for a 1st division vehicle? Most don't have one.

Would just have Jim and Bert buy a "day" permit? In Wa, having been there done that, If pulled over under the bridge law amount, but over my registration, they give me 10 days to up the registration. no big deal.

Once again you're confusing apples and oranges. Bridge law has nothing to do with registration (tax). Bridge is axle/gross weights. You're doing exactly what I said earlier. People read the word "weight" and they confuse the 2 thinking they're somehow related. They're not. One (registration) is a fee to haul a certain weight. Axle/gross are the limits imposed by either the axle or gross allowable limits set by statute or bridge which is set because of limits to the road, bridge, or length of the vehicle.
Here's where it gets really confusing to the untrained. Bridge law has nothing to do with bridges. Bridge law is the max load you can carry depending on the length of your vehicle. Bridge being the distance between say your front and rear axle (outter bridge) or between any other 2 axles (inner bridge). The bridge built over water that has limits is not about the bridge law. Again, that's where people who haven't had any legal training read "bridge" and their frame of reference is the steel or concrete thing they drive over. In legal terms that's not what it refers. The weight limits posed for the steel or concrete thing over water is a structure limit.
See why it's dangerous and sometimes silly for people who have no legal training try to explain the statutes? They read a word that is common to them and expect that to mean the same in the statutes. As a result they just confuse themselves even more and others when they try to explain to someone else who doesn't understand. That's why what should be a simple thread ends up going 20 pages, because people can't get out of their heads the definitions they *think* are not the same as the statutes' meanings.

[blt2ski]

Ok, so what do you do in the case of Bert or Jim, who's registration does NOT show a GVW based on tax paid? Because they have not paid a tax? I know I am good to 12K, because that is the tax I have paid for. I could pay $10 more and be good to 14K in my state. BUT, they do not pay a GVW tax, just a registration tax. They are under the max axel wt, but have not paid the tax, so what do you do? let them go? make them pay the tax? but if there from out of you area..............

Would just have Jim and Bert buy a "day" permit? In Wa, having been there done that, If pulled over under the bridge law amount, but over my registration, they give me 10 days to up the registration. no big deal.

[Wadcutter]

blt2ski wrote:

Neither registration shows paid for wt tags. SO now the LEO has to go to the truck/trailer and figure out what is max, SO looks at door frame etc.

You're confusing 2 separate statutes. You are confusing registered weights and legal weights. That's a common confusion for people who are not very well versed in the law and try to interpret the law they way they *think* it should read.
Look at it this way. Your registered weight is a tax you pay to haul "X" number of pounds. Doesn't matter what your door sticker says. If you want to haul 10K in your truck then you pay the tax to haul at least 10K. If you decide you want to haul 15K then you would need to pay the additional "tax", ie, registration fee to haul the additional weight. You fed door sticker may say something like 9600 lbs. Doesn't matter what the door sticker says if you don't pay the tax (registration fee). It also doesn't matter if your door sticker says 9600 lbs and you've paid your registration fee for 12K. That door sticker doesn't mean a thing as far as what you register for. What matters is did you pay enough tax to haul for what you're hauling.
You can be over on your registered weight and completely legal on axle and/or gross. They are completely separate issues. When people who don't understand the law try to read it it seems as soon as they see the word "weight" they can't separate what they're reading and that confuses them. It's really not that difficult but people who don't have the training make it difficult for themselves and then when they try to explain what they *think* it just confuses others and even themselves more. People do the same thing when they read the speed statutes and similar worded statutes titled "too fast for conditions". They think because they're under the posted speed limit that they can't be cited for "too fast for conditions". Again, one doesn't have anything to do with the other.
The law is written at an 8th grade reading comprehension level. The problem is the average American reads at a 3rd grade comprehension level. They aren't capable of understanding what they read. What's even worse is for every person who is at a 5th grade level there is the person who is at the 1st grade level.

[blt2ski]

http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/size_weight.htm

The law for weights from what I can tell, we must follow. RV's are included in this! We appear to be allowed the minimu/maximum legal axel wt by law, which is 20K per axle, 34 per tandem, and 80K total. States may choose to weigh RV's, or not. If you are over a legal axel limit, you can be told to move things around until legal, with an option of no fine, again, up to the state you are traveling in.

The few caveats I see, is states can limit you to a minimum of 500 lbs per inch width of tire. So to get the 20K per axel, you will need at least 40" of tires, in 2 20's or 4 10's depending upon if single or dually. Tandems you would need 4 8.5" tires if duals, and 2 17" tires if singles.

Also, if you license/registration papers do not have a paid for GVWR on it. That is when I believe some of us will run into trouble if pulled over! In which case, then the LEO in the weigh shack needs to figure out what you legal axel load is.

Example, my thought, two folks equal trucks, 11600 total, 4500 on front, 7100 on rear, 11400 on door, and 5000 for max front, and 9000 for max rear. trailer is 2 6K axels. One is me, I have a paid for GVWR sticker on my registration for the truck at 12K, trailers at 12K. Other is poor BertP in BC or jimilin in OK. Neither registration shows paid for wt tags. SO now the LEO has to go to the truck/trailer and figure out what is max, SO looks at door frame etc. Truck is 11400 max, trailer 12K but all three of us have 10K on axels, so ok there. Troop looks at my paper work, I am under all of the paper work ratings, sends me on my way. Bert and Jim meanwhile, are told max is 11400, and to go forward they need to lose 200 lbs off the truck! so they proceed to start moving items off the truck to the traler, or move spouses clothes out of front bed closet to the back of the trailer to reduce pin wt by 201+ lbs. Then troop will say bye bye. They may or may not get ticketed for being over loaded. BECAUSE> they get maximum by law, which is 20K per axel or 34 K for the trailer tandem. They are under this, but over there paid for weight!

ANother option, if they were in washington like I am, troop wieghs them, over registered weight, but under max axel weights, told I need to up my paid for wt until my registration is over, and sent on my way! been there done that! By theway, I was WAY over manufactures wts!

The component the weight laws are protecting, is teh road itself. NOT the tires, axels, springs brakes etc of the truck etc. BUT the road itself! WIeght laws started back in the late 1800's to protect the gravel dirt roads that states at the time started to put in, to keep the narrow wheeled horse carts from damaging these "cart paths" then it was moved into roads, interstates during the Eisenhower yrs in the 50's and the interstate system was started.

Look at above link to US DOT. also google "federal Bridge laws" look at Wikipedia listing etc. quite interesting to say the least. Will probably blow many of your minds as to what "ACTUAL" weight laws are protecting, and what you can really do! with what! I am sure the "RV.NET component weight police" will be up in arms!LOLOLOL

Marty

[hook47]

Yep me too. Must be the "chemistry" angle...:R

For me, its beer...for others it might be "beer goggles"...they see what they want to see.:B

[SolidAxleDurang]

I'm actually amazed that this thread made it to this many pages given that FMCSA regulations specifically exclude "recreational" towing....

"The-law" threads entertain me... LOL