{The following post is very confusing. As it is read, keep in mind all the alterations described to existing completed portions are simply "modifications" so as to make future possible component removal easier, in the event of needed repairs for particular parts of the camper}
Today I'm moving to the very end of the waste water - the dump valve.
Between the dump valve and the shower drain, I've realized I really constrained myself on space at the grey water tank.
I guess that's to be expected. Here we are with a camper interior that has headroom of only one inch shorter than I am tall - 6'3". I'm 6'4" with age. I've lost an inch over the years, but you know how those spinal discs get over time. Of course on the outside of the camper it's a little bit more, what with one whole inch of ceiling, framing and roofing, not counting vent heights. But camper height is only the one aspect. Most campers with tanks use a basement these days.
Lil' Queeny never had a waste tank before. And at least the black tank is self contained in the portable toilet system, so the challenge here is only grey.
The other skimpy space issue deals with the free area around the tank for plumbing connections. The galley sink has natural space for a straight in shot. The bathroom sink has a top surface access and is tight, but shares room in the battery box. The shower is the real challenge, because the shower elevation HAS to start out relatively low, and the inlet into the tank is at the top of the side wall. In that connection there's only 3" of elevation change between the two connections. That will be worked later and is quite a challenge.
But even back at the dump valve, there's a very short distance between the exit connection and the "enclosed" access door.
And this is no 3" dump gate valve for normal sewage hose connection. No, this is simple a 1.5" gate valve adapting to a garden hose connection. You know, grey water.
Between the tank and the outside edge of the floor is only 6.5". And a good deal of that is reserved for both the gate valve itself - and its required connectors and adapters, and the access door thickness.
One design would be as shown, with the hose adapter fastened here. There's two reasons I don't like it. One - it furtehr reduces how much tank water will come out by centering the drain hose that much more higher than the tank floor (already a design flaw for this particular tank - but I have it and I have to use it). Two - every dump will leave some leakage INSIDE the camper. Completely unacceptable.
I had planned on elbowing the downstream plumbing through the floor with a hose connector on the bottom (there's room above the bumper, a pretty good solution actually) but I don't want to drill large holes through the structural 2x2's and the line-up wasn't good here to miss those structural members.
My solution is this.
And it brings the valve adapters to this.
These are the players.
The "dump adapter" will thread onto the end of the dump valve, both providing a complete as possible emptying of the tank, as well as bringing all the connection outside, except of course the threading on and off of the adapter, but by then the water has "done flowed". Drips can be wiped up; acceptable for a freeze proof gate valve.
I'm not using the original access door. I'm ordering one that is not only insulated and locking, but has internal framing designed for a potential flip open section, so the door can close and lock with the adapter attached. Heck, that might even become permanent!
But getting the gate valve to this stage was interesting and the main challenge of the day.
Here's why.
This photo shows the tank raised 1/2", each piece of spacer board is 1/8" paneling. That was the distance needed to raise the tank so as to spin the gate valve flange. See that's an important issue to me. I don't want ANY tank (or fixture) connection that cannot be "repaired" in it's current position, with only minimal disruption to the rest of the camper - even in spite of my unique and challenging "space confinements".
And as with many things on this camper, I'm not just improving on a camper's original design, I'm designing a great deal of it myself. And I'm not a camper designer. But I do PLAY one on RV, so I have that going for me, which is good.
Because of adding the tank, I also added its hold down method(s). You know, because you never can tell when a grey tank is going to rise up against it's master and cause chaos and commotion. Very untrustworthy objects they are, but they do have a special charm that causes us to keep them around, don't 'cha think? Cute little things. ๐
But because of that, I had build in various hold downs, to tame its wild nature, at every turn! There was a board on the bottom of the "eventual permanent mounting" of the shower floor. There was the battery tray. There was the cabinet dimensions of the dinette cabinet cut JUST far enough up to let the tank exist, but no more.
There's even a wall cleat to hold the dinette floor that provides a little "hold down". No sir - I guess I wasn't going to let no grey water tank rise up and embarrass me in public! Thank you very much.
So I couldn't lift the tank enough to thread in the gate valve flange. At times I wonder if I should have just added a basement when I built the floor. Then I could have also increased the cab-over bed height to add one of those 10" mattresses! Woo hoo!
But that would have defeated much of my whole goal. No, we can do this. What with the Home Depot and all. Let's do this!
It's a good thing I made sections removable. Out came the shower floor.
Off came the hold down board.
Filled were the holes. Primed was the spot.
Tank still wouldn't lift.
Out came the dinette cabinet. Moved was the fresh water cabinet wall.
Okay, okay what's going on here. Why am I having to mess with the fresh water just to get the dinette piece out? That's not handy! Let's fix that.
Okay, that's better. These two little original cleats were the culprits. We don't need those. Get them off of there! They weren't fastening anything, just in the way and preventing the whole "lift out" unless you shift the fresh water cabinet forward.
A little bit of primer. Better!
Where else is the tank hitting? Right along the dinette cabinet under-side that rests close to the tank roof. Cut a half inch off of that and bingo!
Before.
After.
What else? Oh yes. There was that one door catch member when I was looking really close and examining, where the screw mounting round heads were slightly touching the tank material. Not good. I mean sure, I had tamed my wild grey water tank. It was coming right along to my voice commands. But it was still a tank. It might shift every so slightly to the left, over and over again until those screw heads made just the slightest little holes. Not acceptable! I changed the screws out to flat heads.
This photo actyually shows the small gap between the tank and the catch. Neither will shift and the gap is about 3/16". I would say it was an 1/8", but that would be a lie.
So now, the galley, the dinette, and the fresh water cabinets can each be removed, without touching any of the other two. That'll make any future repairs and modifications lots easier!
I was able to lift the grey tank enough as is, but here you see the dinette floor cleat still providing hold down. I think I'll leave it alone, but it could also be easily removed and shortened to give a little more lift if needed.
And that leaves only one other hold down - the battery tray. And it's easy enough to remove the batteries and a few screws, to lift the tank as necessary in future.
Oh, I also got the grey water tank "fill level" instrumentation installed. I haven't run the 12V wiring, but I'm not sure I will.
Today I'm moving to the very end of the waste water - the dump valve.
Between the dump valve and the shower drain, I've realized I really constrained myself on space at the grey water tank.
I guess that's to be expected. Here we are with a camper interior that has headroom of only one inch shorter than I am tall - 6'3". I'm 6'4" with age. I've lost an inch over the years, but you know how those spinal discs get over time. Of course on the outside of the camper it's a little bit more, what with one whole inch of ceiling, framing and roofing, not counting vent heights. But camper height is only the one aspect. Most campers with tanks use a basement these days.
Lil' Queeny never had a waste tank before. And at least the black tank is self contained in the portable toilet system, so the challenge here is only grey.
The other skimpy space issue deals with the free area around the tank for plumbing connections. The galley sink has natural space for a straight in shot. The bathroom sink has a top surface access and is tight, but shares room in the battery box. The shower is the real challenge, because the shower elevation HAS to start out relatively low, and the inlet into the tank is at the top of the side wall. In that connection there's only 3" of elevation change between the two connections. That will be worked later and is quite a challenge.
But even back at the dump valve, there's a very short distance between the exit connection and the "enclosed" access door.
And this is no 3" dump gate valve for normal sewage hose connection. No, this is simple a 1.5" gate valve adapting to a garden hose connection. You know, grey water.
Between the tank and the outside edge of the floor is only 6.5". And a good deal of that is reserved for both the gate valve itself - and its required connectors and adapters, and the access door thickness.
One design would be as shown, with the hose adapter fastened here. There's two reasons I don't like it. One - it furtehr reduces how much tank water will come out by centering the drain hose that much more higher than the tank floor (already a design flaw for this particular tank - but I have it and I have to use it). Two - every dump will leave some leakage INSIDE the camper. Completely unacceptable.
I had planned on elbowing the downstream plumbing through the floor with a hose connector on the bottom (there's room above the bumper, a pretty good solution actually) but I don't want to drill large holes through the structural 2x2's and the line-up wasn't good here to miss those structural members.
My solution is this.
And it brings the valve adapters to this.
These are the players.
The "dump adapter" will thread onto the end of the dump valve, both providing a complete as possible emptying of the tank, as well as bringing all the connection outside, except of course the threading on and off of the adapter, but by then the water has "done flowed". Drips can be wiped up; acceptable for a freeze proof gate valve.
I'm not using the original access door. I'm ordering one that is not only insulated and locking, but has internal framing designed for a potential flip open section, so the door can close and lock with the adapter attached. Heck, that might even become permanent!
But getting the gate valve to this stage was interesting and the main challenge of the day.
Here's why.
This photo shows the tank raised 1/2", each piece of spacer board is 1/8" paneling. That was the distance needed to raise the tank so as to spin the gate valve flange. See that's an important issue to me. I don't want ANY tank (or fixture) connection that cannot be "repaired" in it's current position, with only minimal disruption to the rest of the camper - even in spite of my unique and challenging "space confinements".
And as with many things on this camper, I'm not just improving on a camper's original design, I'm designing a great deal of it myself. And I'm not a camper designer. But I do PLAY one on RV, so I have that going for me, which is good.
Because of adding the tank, I also added its hold down method(s). You know, because you never can tell when a grey tank is going to rise up against it's master and cause chaos and commotion. Very untrustworthy objects they are, but they do have a special charm that causes us to keep them around, don't 'cha think? Cute little things. ๐
But because of that, I had build in various hold downs, to tame its wild nature, at every turn! There was a board on the bottom of the "eventual permanent mounting" of the shower floor. There was the battery tray. There was the cabinet dimensions of the dinette cabinet cut JUST far enough up to let the tank exist, but no more.
There's even a wall cleat to hold the dinette floor that provides a little "hold down". No sir - I guess I wasn't going to let no grey water tank rise up and embarrass me in public! Thank you very much.
So I couldn't lift the tank enough to thread in the gate valve flange. At times I wonder if I should have just added a basement when I built the floor. Then I could have also increased the cab-over bed height to add one of those 10" mattresses! Woo hoo!
But that would have defeated much of my whole goal. No, we can do this. What with the Home Depot and all. Let's do this!
It's a good thing I made sections removable. Out came the shower floor.
Off came the hold down board.
Filled were the holes. Primed was the spot.
Tank still wouldn't lift.
Out came the dinette cabinet. Moved was the fresh water cabinet wall.
Okay, okay what's going on here. Why am I having to mess with the fresh water just to get the dinette piece out? That's not handy! Let's fix that.
Okay, that's better. These two little original cleats were the culprits. We don't need those. Get them off of there! They weren't fastening anything, just in the way and preventing the whole "lift out" unless you shift the fresh water cabinet forward.
A little bit of primer. Better!
Where else is the tank hitting? Right along the dinette cabinet under-side that rests close to the tank roof. Cut a half inch off of that and bingo!
Before.
After.
What else? Oh yes. There was that one door catch member when I was looking really close and examining, where the screw mounting round heads were slightly touching the tank material. Not good. I mean sure, I had tamed my wild grey water tank. It was coming right along to my voice commands. But it was still a tank. It might shift every so slightly to the left, over and over again until those screw heads made just the slightest little holes. Not acceptable! I changed the screws out to flat heads.
This photo actyually shows the small gap between the tank and the catch. Neither will shift and the gap is about 3/16". I would say it was an 1/8", but that would be a lie.
So now, the galley, the dinette, and the fresh water cabinets can each be removed, without touching any of the other two. That'll make any future repairs and modifications lots easier!
I was able to lift the grey tank enough as is, but here you see the dinette floor cleat still providing hold down. I think I'll leave it alone, but it could also be easily removed and shortened to give a little more lift if needed.
And that leaves only one other hold down - the battery tray. And it's easy enough to remove the batteries and a few screws, to lift the tank as necessary in future.
Oh, I also got the grey water tank "fill level" instrumentation installed. I haven't run the 12V wiring, but I'm not sure I will.
Today I'm shifting back into "Waste Water". The pre-outfitting of the galley area is coming along nicely. Yesterday over there, we did the top drawer dividers, as just one of the things going on behind the galley scenes.
Another of the things going on behind there is the waste water subject of the galley sink drain, waste, vent. The aspect of that I want to cover today is a continuation of my previous post here - regarding the copper pipe segment that comes out from behind the cabinet face, turns a couple corners (like the "magic bullet theory"), and disappears once again behind the fresh water cabinet scenes.
It was time to try my hand again at sweating copper. I don't often do that.
My Dad taught me how to sweat copper, and over the years I've had a little experience with it. New pipe and fittings are always easier to do a good job than used stuff. One of the secrets is that everything needs to be very clean, at least where the solder goes.
Sometimes you can get leaks where there was previous solder or a nick or some other imperfection in the joint surfaces, especially when using other than new. In this case, I had some used pipe, but all new fittings. Of course after the first try, if a second time is needed to correct a leak for example, now you have used parts! So far, that hasn't happened.
I have found 1/2" is easier than 3/4". I've never done anything but those two sizes. Now here I go with 1.5". I was a little nervous.
Was my propane torch going to be hot enough? Was I going to remember the steps while under way, including wiping the joint once done for a nicer look? Was the smoke alarm going to go off (and it did)? These fittings aren't cheap, and I could hardly destroy them, but success at first would be easier than a second or third try.
The first thing to do was place the hole in the galley face.
Having previously marked the hole, I ran a simple hole saw into the wood and removed the plug.
Then a simply barrel sander with the Dremel tool to slightly enlarge the diameter to fit the pipe.
I ended up with this. Far enough from the wall to allow the thickness of the planned wall covering, and far enough from the chrome flange on the range to keep from cutting into it, or touching it. Even a slight fraction of an inch separation between metals looks much more professional to my eye than does the two metals touching.
This is the test fit, before solder.
And it's look from a distance.
Here you see the end of the coupler - no pipe extension yet. This is where the joint enters the fresh water cabinet below the fridge and on top of the notch built into the fresh water cabinet partition face. From here I could determine how long to make the extension pipe. I made a poor decision, I cut the extension too short for optimal. After all was said and done I had forgotten to "plumb" the currently unfastened portion of the face wall and it wasn't pushed far enough back, or to the right from this angle.
Here you can see the extension in place at the coupler.
The main reason for cutting it shorter at all was for installation. This picture shows what I had planned. First insert the longer end into the galley face. Then swing the shorter end up into a notch I would cut in the fresh water cabinet face.
Even with the pipe cut as short as I dared go, the cutout notch would have to be larger than I wanted. What else could be done? I wanted the joint to be removable for any future needs of removing both the fresh water cabinet pieces, or the galley cabinet pieces, for whatever reason. I concluded a longer pipe would have worked, simply by removing either face board, and that would prevent the need to cut the "swing up notch".
Within a few days, when I discuss some other waste water plumbing issues, you'll hear how I further altered the dinette (grey water) cabinet to allow it's removal without touching the fresh water cabinet. Likewise, here you see the fresh water cabinet removed, and that is without touching the dinette (grey water) cabinet.
And that allowed the joint, with the already shortened fresh water cabinet side piece shown here, to be inserted, even IF it were longer.
Next came the sweating.
I just heated the joints, moving around the pipe to try and heat evenly, then settled on one side as much as possible to touch solder on the far side. That causes the solder to flow toward the hotter torch side. The pipe was big enough that I couldn't just remain in one spot. I had to kind of work the heat, and the soldering point, around the pipe. Of course besides a good cleaning and burr removal, I had brushed on flux. Flux is absolutely necessary. It lets the solder flow.
This picture shows the completed unit - partly polished up.
More polished.
And in position.
A keen eye with see the poorly placed cabinet mounting screw. Yes, it was problematic. I'll discuss that later in "Galley".
Here's how the Fernco adapter connects to the shortened pipe. I don't love the rubber compression. But of course I chose the smaller copper outside diameter (than what the adapter is designed for - PVC larger diameter) for just that reason, it was smaller for the cabinet face constrictions, as I didn't want to notch the chrome flange on the range, plus the living area's look of the copper is better to my eye than would be PVC, painted or otherwise.
Also note the top of the face wall is leaning forward (left), away from the plumb line on the opposing wall. Therein lies the cause of the miss-measurement of the copper stub pipe.
And actually, that plumb line is too far backward (right) but the point is made.
There is a resolution however for the shortened stub pipe. I simply flipped the unit. The distance needed behind the range was much shorter than was the distance in the fresh water cabinet, for obvious build style reasons. Here's how it sits after flipping.
And here viewed from above through the access area below the fridge with the small under storage floor cover removed. Much better! I was very pleased.
Now a good plumber would say I've installed the "street elbows" backwards, and they would be correct. It's appropriate to discuss that here.
A "standard elbow" has two female ends. I know, I know - don't ask me to explain it, it just is and I accept it.
A "street elbow" on the other hand has both a female end, and a male end. Now that I say it, it seems even stranger. But here's why. (Some of this is truth, some is assumption and I'm making up the rest as I go - so you've been warned).
Even weirder is that a pipe has only two male ends! Therefore, any fitting that a pipe goes into has to be a female end. The beauty of a street elbow is two fold. The first and obvious is that you can put two fittings together, because each have a female and a male end. If I had used two standard elbows, I would at the least have needed to cut a 1.5" piece of pipe (called a nipple - I think maybe the original plumbing parts namers were somewhat Freudian) to sweat between the two elbows! By using the street elbows, I could insert one elbow right into the other, skipping nipples altogether.
Now I don't particularly like to skip nipples, but in the interest of the space and time continuum discussed yesterday, I am not against it.
The other reason, and of more particular importance, is that of correct placement of the female and male ends based on direction of drainage flow. Like a funnel, put the male end into the female end to allow a constriction free flow downstream for the waste, often containing much more than simple liquid.
This correct installation of a street elbow was considerably more important back in the day when plumbing materials had more wall thickness, such as clay pipe used throughout many cities. The female end had a sort of bevel on the "waste catch" edge, while the inserted male piece had a sharper squared off edge. Waste would flow better through a joint that had that bevel, and would catch on the squared edge of the male end (if it was installed backwards). The basic inside diameters were all the same, but there would be that little "catch" in each incorrect joint. The same is true today in something as commonly used as PVC. But the thinner wall of the copper, especially for a galley sink, is of much less concern, than otherwise.
And it fixed my "too short" boo-boo.
(Dave wipes the perspiration from his forehead), well, that was uncomfortable. Glad THAT's over.
Another of the things going on behind there is the waste water subject of the galley sink drain, waste, vent. The aspect of that I want to cover today is a continuation of my previous post here - regarding the copper pipe segment that comes out from behind the cabinet face, turns a couple corners (like the "magic bullet theory"), and disappears once again behind the fresh water cabinet scenes.
It was time to try my hand again at sweating copper. I don't often do that.
My Dad taught me how to sweat copper, and over the years I've had a little experience with it. New pipe and fittings are always easier to do a good job than used stuff. One of the secrets is that everything needs to be very clean, at least where the solder goes.
Sometimes you can get leaks where there was previous solder or a nick or some other imperfection in the joint surfaces, especially when using other than new. In this case, I had some used pipe, but all new fittings. Of course after the first try, if a second time is needed to correct a leak for example, now you have used parts! So far, that hasn't happened.
I have found 1/2" is easier than 3/4". I've never done anything but those two sizes. Now here I go with 1.5". I was a little nervous.
Was my propane torch going to be hot enough? Was I going to remember the steps while under way, including wiping the joint once done for a nicer look? Was the smoke alarm going to go off (and it did)? These fittings aren't cheap, and I could hardly destroy them, but success at first would be easier than a second or third try.
The first thing to do was place the hole in the galley face.
Having previously marked the hole, I ran a simple hole saw into the wood and removed the plug.
Then a simply barrel sander with the Dremel tool to slightly enlarge the diameter to fit the pipe.
I ended up with this. Far enough from the wall to allow the thickness of the planned wall covering, and far enough from the chrome flange on the range to keep from cutting into it, or touching it. Even a slight fraction of an inch separation between metals looks much more professional to my eye than does the two metals touching.
This is the test fit, before solder.
And it's look from a distance.
Here you see the end of the coupler - no pipe extension yet. This is where the joint enters the fresh water cabinet below the fridge and on top of the notch built into the fresh water cabinet partition face. From here I could determine how long to make the extension pipe. I made a poor decision, I cut the extension too short for optimal. After all was said and done I had forgotten to "plumb" the currently unfastened portion of the face wall and it wasn't pushed far enough back, or to the right from this angle.
Here you can see the extension in place at the coupler.
The main reason for cutting it shorter at all was for installation. This picture shows what I had planned. First insert the longer end into the galley face. Then swing the shorter end up into a notch I would cut in the fresh water cabinet face.
Even with the pipe cut as short as I dared go, the cutout notch would have to be larger than I wanted. What else could be done? I wanted the joint to be removable for any future needs of removing both the fresh water cabinet pieces, or the galley cabinet pieces, for whatever reason. I concluded a longer pipe would have worked, simply by removing either face board, and that would prevent the need to cut the "swing up notch".
Within a few days, when I discuss some other waste water plumbing issues, you'll hear how I further altered the dinette (grey water) cabinet to allow it's removal without touching the fresh water cabinet. Likewise, here you see the fresh water cabinet removed, and that is without touching the dinette (grey water) cabinet.
And that allowed the joint, with the already shortened fresh water cabinet side piece shown here, to be inserted, even IF it were longer.
Next came the sweating.
I just heated the joints, moving around the pipe to try and heat evenly, then settled on one side as much as possible to touch solder on the far side. That causes the solder to flow toward the hotter torch side. The pipe was big enough that I couldn't just remain in one spot. I had to kind of work the heat, and the soldering point, around the pipe. Of course besides a good cleaning and burr removal, I had brushed on flux. Flux is absolutely necessary. It lets the solder flow.
This picture shows the completed unit - partly polished up.
More polished.
And in position.
A keen eye with see the poorly placed cabinet mounting screw. Yes, it was problematic. I'll discuss that later in "Galley".
Here's how the Fernco adapter connects to the shortened pipe. I don't love the rubber compression. But of course I chose the smaller copper outside diameter (than what the adapter is designed for - PVC larger diameter) for just that reason, it was smaller for the cabinet face constrictions, as I didn't want to notch the chrome flange on the range, plus the living area's look of the copper is better to my eye than would be PVC, painted or otherwise.
Also note the top of the face wall is leaning forward (left), away from the plumb line on the opposing wall. Therein lies the cause of the miss-measurement of the copper stub pipe.
And actually, that plumb line is too far backward (right) but the point is made.
There is a resolution however for the shortened stub pipe. I simply flipped the unit. The distance needed behind the range was much shorter than was the distance in the fresh water cabinet, for obvious build style reasons. Here's how it sits after flipping.
And here viewed from above through the access area below the fridge with the small under storage floor cover removed. Much better! I was very pleased.
Now a good plumber would say I've installed the "street elbows" backwards, and they would be correct. It's appropriate to discuss that here.
A "standard elbow" has two female ends. I know, I know - don't ask me to explain it, it just is and I accept it.
A "street elbow" on the other hand has both a female end, and a male end. Now that I say it, it seems even stranger. But here's why. (Some of this is truth, some is assumption and I'm making up the rest as I go - so you've been warned).
Even weirder is that a pipe has only two male ends! Therefore, any fitting that a pipe goes into has to be a female end. The beauty of a street elbow is two fold. The first and obvious is that you can put two fittings together, because each have a female and a male end. If I had used two standard elbows, I would at the least have needed to cut a 1.5" piece of pipe (called a nipple - I think maybe the original plumbing parts namers were somewhat Freudian) to sweat between the two elbows! By using the street elbows, I could insert one elbow right into the other, skipping nipples altogether.
Now I don't particularly like to skip nipples, but in the interest of the space and time continuum discussed yesterday, I am not against it.
The other reason, and of more particular importance, is that of correct placement of the female and male ends based on direction of drainage flow. Like a funnel, put the male end into the female end to allow a constriction free flow downstream for the waste, often containing much more than simple liquid.
This correct installation of a street elbow was considerably more important back in the day when plumbing materials had more wall thickness, such as clay pipe used throughout many cities. The female end had a sort of bevel on the "waste catch" edge, while the inserted male piece had a sharper squared off edge. Waste would flow better through a joint that had that bevel, and would catch on the squared edge of the male end (if it was installed backwards). The basic inside diameters were all the same, but there would be that little "catch" in each incorrect joint. The same is true today in something as commonly used as PVC. But the thinner wall of the copper, especially for a galley sink, is of much less concern, than otherwise.
And it fixed my "too short" boo-boo.
(Dave wipes the perspiration from his forehead), well, that was uncomfortable. Glad THAT's over.
With too much going on this week for real camper work, I'm posting some recent-past photos that were saved out because they didn't really make up a full post. But as sources dry up, they become a little more "post worthy". (I sound like a politician with the word "post" used so many times in one paragraph).
I mentioned I'd be using copper pipe in the camper. Not throughout, but in particular ways. Remember back in the day when copper tubing - mostly 3.8" I think - was used? Both for water and gas?
And then came drugs and people were stripping out copper from homes and campers and selling it on the salvage market so they could buy more allergy medicine to make meth and stuff. Okay, well maybe I got part of my back-story wrong, but you don't find copper water pipe in campers anymore.
Copper was replaced with plastic. Imagine that, plastic being used as a natural resource! But because of my public skool edukation, I happen to know what plastic is made out of - consumers! Don't use plastic! It's made out of people! Wait. That doesn't sound right either. Let me do some more checking and I'll get back with you on that - for sure.
But there have been at least a few common water pipe materials since copper. I think Pex is probably a popular contender right now. Pex clamps, worm-gear clamps, threaded fittings and cemented. enough to keep the DIY RV owner in several styles of required tools.
My folks helped build their new home in 1961 (just sold last summer). One neat feature that we kids loved growing up, and every grand-kid and great grand-kid mom and dad had over all those years included, was the 3" copper drain pipe at the foot of the stairs! Can you believe it? 3" copper? As drain pipe?
We'd run down the stairs, grab onto that pipe toward the top on our downwind leg, and swing around it to navigate the 90 degree base leg, turning onto final at the bottom, feet flailing wildly in the wind until coming back into contact with the ground just before face planting the wall - if you hadn't cut back the throttle far enough. That pipe never oxidized. Loving child hands polished that pipe to looking glass smooth for over 50 years!
I still remember how my forehead used to look before we installed the suspended ceiling and I grew taller as a young teenager. Puberty changes all sorts of things, not the least of which is foreheads on a boy.
And I could sit here and talk more about the copper pipe plans for our fresh water system, but that would be illegal, so I can only discuss the drain pipe in this thread. At least for today.
Somewhere along the line I mentioned the fridge cabinet, and my desire to keep it convertible for future potential increased fridge size. If so, it would take up too much height for drain lines to live there. For that reason I needed different routing for the drain run from the kitchen sink. I found a suitable cavity; between the range and the fridge cabinet.
But, by doing so, the drain line exits the face of that cabinet at the lower bottom corner of the range, and in broad view of everybody, turns the corner before it disappears again in the fresh water cabinet. How to make it pretty? I considered PVC, or maybe CPVC in cream if they make such a size in CPVC (but I don't think they do). However, I didn't have the width in the cut-out for PVC. Barely enough space for the much smaller diameter 1.5" copper. (I didn't want to cut into the chrome face flange of the range.)
But a run over to the home center revealed very high prices for copper pipe and fittings! As you might expect, the drug trade being what it is these days and all.
I couldn't justify buying a whole stick of 10' pipe for the small pieces I needed. I could justify the fittings prices, but just barely.
So I called a plumbing shop and asked if they had any scrap pieces. One fine shop I found here locally gave me the one foot piece I needed. It was salvaged drain pipe from a home like my folks'.
I cut it into two 6" lengths and had enough left over to make a ring of power.
Together with my purchased street elbows and a coupler I had this.
Here's the general idea.
Here's the galley cabinet face pulled back from the fridge cabinet for test placement.
Two things I've noticed from the test fit. First I need to cut back the length of the pipe entering the fresh water cabinet. It will need to rotate upward into horizontal, so in the cabinet face below it there will need to be kind of an elongated hole to allow the swing. The swing length (and hole size) can be minimized by cutting the length back as far as possible. And I can't remember what the second thing was.
At each end I'll connect to the under cabinet PVC with a no-hub coupling (also referred to as a Fernco coupling). Those are a rubber cylindrical sleeve that has a worm gear clamp at both ends for fastening to the pipe. The pipe slips inside the coupling and the clamps on rubber make the seal.
My range clearance says I need only 3/8" combustibles clearance, which I have and more, but I think I may install a small sheet metal shield over the one along the stove, just for added security.
The only thing I'm having trouble with is how to increase the pipe length between elbows to provide the grand-kids enough "swing time".
I mentioned I'd be using copper pipe in the camper. Not throughout, but in particular ways. Remember back in the day when copper tubing - mostly 3.8" I think - was used? Both for water and gas?
And then came drugs and people were stripping out copper from homes and campers and selling it on the salvage market so they could buy more allergy medicine to make meth and stuff. Okay, well maybe I got part of my back-story wrong, but you don't find copper water pipe in campers anymore.
Copper was replaced with plastic. Imagine that, plastic being used as a natural resource! But because of my public skool edukation, I happen to know what plastic is made out of - consumers! Don't use plastic! It's made out of people! Wait. That doesn't sound right either. Let me do some more checking and I'll get back with you on that - for sure.
But there have been at least a few common water pipe materials since copper. I think Pex is probably a popular contender right now. Pex clamps, worm-gear clamps, threaded fittings and cemented. enough to keep the DIY RV owner in several styles of required tools.
My folks helped build their new home in 1961 (just sold last summer). One neat feature that we kids loved growing up, and every grand-kid and great grand-kid mom and dad had over all those years included, was the 3" copper drain pipe at the foot of the stairs! Can you believe it? 3" copper? As drain pipe?
We'd run down the stairs, grab onto that pipe toward the top on our downwind leg, and swing around it to navigate the 90 degree base leg, turning onto final at the bottom, feet flailing wildly in the wind until coming back into contact with the ground just before face planting the wall - if you hadn't cut back the throttle far enough. That pipe never oxidized. Loving child hands polished that pipe to looking glass smooth for over 50 years!
I still remember how my forehead used to look before we installed the suspended ceiling and I grew taller as a young teenager. Puberty changes all sorts of things, not the least of which is foreheads on a boy.
And I could sit here and talk more about the copper pipe plans for our fresh water system, but that would be illegal, so I can only discuss the drain pipe in this thread. At least for today.
Somewhere along the line I mentioned the fridge cabinet, and my desire to keep it convertible for future potential increased fridge size. If so, it would take up too much height for drain lines to live there. For that reason I needed different routing for the drain run from the kitchen sink. I found a suitable cavity; between the range and the fridge cabinet.
But, by doing so, the drain line exits the face of that cabinet at the lower bottom corner of the range, and in broad view of everybody, turns the corner before it disappears again in the fresh water cabinet. How to make it pretty? I considered PVC, or maybe CPVC in cream if they make such a size in CPVC (but I don't think they do). However, I didn't have the width in the cut-out for PVC. Barely enough space for the much smaller diameter 1.5" copper. (I didn't want to cut into the chrome face flange of the range.)
But a run over to the home center revealed very high prices for copper pipe and fittings! As you might expect, the drug trade being what it is these days and all.
I couldn't justify buying a whole stick of 10' pipe for the small pieces I needed. I could justify the fittings prices, but just barely.
So I called a plumbing shop and asked if they had any scrap pieces. One fine shop I found here locally gave me the one foot piece I needed. It was salvaged drain pipe from a home like my folks'.
I cut it into two 6" lengths and had enough left over to make a ring of power.
Together with my purchased street elbows and a coupler I had this.
Here's the general idea.
Here's the galley cabinet face pulled back from the fridge cabinet for test placement.
Two things I've noticed from the test fit. First I need to cut back the length of the pipe entering the fresh water cabinet. It will need to rotate upward into horizontal, so in the cabinet face below it there will need to be kind of an elongated hole to allow the swing. The swing length (and hole size) can be minimized by cutting the length back as far as possible. And I can't remember what the second thing was.
At each end I'll connect to the under cabinet PVC with a no-hub coupling (also referred to as a Fernco coupling). Those are a rubber cylindrical sleeve that has a worm gear clamp at both ends for fastening to the pipe. The pipe slips inside the coupling and the clamps on rubber make the seal.
My range clearance says I need only 3/8" combustibles clearance, which I have and more, but I think I may install a small sheet metal shield over the one along the stove, just for added security.
The only thing I'm having trouble with is how to increase the pipe length between elbows to provide the grand-kids enough "swing time".
So I showed under "Galley and Greatroom" how that hole for the galley drain worked out mentioned in the previous post. Here it is shown with the hole cut.
And again from a distance how that area is setting up, between the fresh water tank compartment and here into the grey water tank compartment.
The dump valve came a few days ago. I guess I wasn't thinking and forgot to get the flanges for either side of the valve. Those are usually still on the RV and don't get replaced, but I'll need two, one between the valve and the tank, and one downstream.
Welcome to my heated basement.
Why angle the handle that direction? Perhaps this answers the question.
When needing to drain the tank, there will be a garden hose style grey water drain hose connected to the camper and typically, even when "hooked up" we won't keep the drain valve open. We'll dump when needed and keep the valve closed the rest of the time. That means there may be some times when you just don't want to go outside. And what better way to use that extra hole in the wall? I'll make another pop-out door that fills the opening. Time to dump, pull the little door off and set aside. Grab the handle, pull. When empty, close the valve. Replace the door, have another beer (coffee, water depending on the time of day).
Here you can see a couple inches between the tank and the valve. The first inch for the 1.5" MPT (male pipe thread) by 1.5" slip joint (for cement). Then another slip joint with the square bolt flange to attach the valve. That should place the valve just about where you see it.
Then on the other side of the valve another square bolt flange with 1.5" slip joint. At this point I'll elbow the joint straight down and through a hole drilled in the floor. On the exterior (bottom of the camper, I'll neck it down or adapt to a male garden hose connector. That spot underneath sits within an about 6-8" space above the truck bumper and aft of the end of the truck bed. That's where I'll connect the drain hose so I can close and lock and seal the basement exterior access door.
And as the first photo shows, that will give me extra storage space to the right of the valve for the grey hose and other similar objects that aren't exactly the cleanest.
And again from a distance how that area is setting up, between the fresh water tank compartment and here into the grey water tank compartment.
The dump valve came a few days ago. I guess I wasn't thinking and forgot to get the flanges for either side of the valve. Those are usually still on the RV and don't get replaced, but I'll need two, one between the valve and the tank, and one downstream.
Welcome to my heated basement.
Why angle the handle that direction? Perhaps this answers the question.
When needing to drain the tank, there will be a garden hose style grey water drain hose connected to the camper and typically, even when "hooked up" we won't keep the drain valve open. We'll dump when needed and keep the valve closed the rest of the time. That means there may be some times when you just don't want to go outside. And what better way to use that extra hole in the wall? I'll make another pop-out door that fills the opening. Time to dump, pull the little door off and set aside. Grab the handle, pull. When empty, close the valve. Replace the door, have another beer (coffee, water depending on the time of day).
Here you can see a couple inches between the tank and the valve. The first inch for the 1.5" MPT (male pipe thread) by 1.5" slip joint (for cement). Then another slip joint with the square bolt flange to attach the valve. That should place the valve just about where you see it.
Then on the other side of the valve another square bolt flange with 1.5" slip joint. At this point I'll elbow the joint straight down and through a hole drilled in the floor. On the exterior (bottom of the camper, I'll neck it down or adapt to a male garden hose connector. That spot underneath sits within an about 6-8" space above the truck bumper and aft of the end of the truck bed. That's where I'll connect the drain hose so I can close and lock and seal the basement exterior access door.
And as the first photo shows, that will give me extra storage space to the right of the valve for the grey hose and other similar objects that aren't exactly the cleanest.
For me, it's just as important to be willing to re-visit any given issue when new information comes to light as it is for others to hold fast to a long-held position.
Taking that philosophy into my grey tank installation brought me to yesterday's work - a better support for the tank.
The natural support of course would have been a full surface flat floor, and I decided against that so I could get a slope for draining - due to the nature of my custom tank and the exit fitting.
Alternatively, I could have elevated the forward edge of a flat support with spacer blocks to support it, but I kind of wanted the tank bottom more exposed to the air pockets beneath for reasons associated to freezing.
As AnEv (and perhaps you) had noticed, the single support at mid tank was probably not the best long-term installation solution. Upon point out, I had to agree. And I wasn't yet exactly happy with my first resolution, that of two extra supports that had a relatively narrow support surface.
Hey, I've knelt bared kneed on the narrow edge of an attic truss more than once and granted, letting your knee-caps and cartilage and soft tissue form around the board greatly enhances balance, especially when you have to lean waaaaay forward or sideways to press fiberglass batts into just the right position, but I'm here to tell you, THAT would not be a good long-term solution. And that's BEFORE I fill myself with 21 gallons of water, or whatever beverage I must drink to ever do THAT kind of job again!
So here's what I did.
And here's how I got there.
First I found the correct angle of the slope. The first attempt was 5 degrees off the 90 degree right angle on the table saw. Five was too much, so the next test piece was 2.5 degrees. Too little. The final angle was 3.5 degrees and that fit the slope on the level.
The boards were all cut from 1.5" scrap stock. The high point was 1.5" and the mid-point 3/4". So I made supports - each 1/4" higher or lower - and that gave me two additional supports between each original.
The two smaller ones were stapled to the floor, but the two taller were pre-drilled and screwed down.
One thing I'm not sure I like is the potential for dust, debris, etc to hide under here. But with it sealed good from the outside I'm hoping it will stay relatively clean and at least I can blow air back under to flush stuff out, or use a narrow attachment on a vacuum.
Here's the bottom of the tank surface with the slight inward bow. It's not very noticeably in the photo. In fact, if memory serves me, the inability of the photo to indicate the bow's severity was ONE of the factors that prompted me to use it instead of returning the tank. Overall I'm happy with it and I believe the bow will be of negligible effect.
The tank slipped right back into position and snapped in place.
I feel much better about that tank support now.
I raised the front of the camper with the floor jack about 3/8" to level it front to back. Then I used my 12" level with the 1/8" and 1/4" per foot graduations on the bubble scale to get the proper 1/4" per foot slope on the drain pipe - and projected it to the next board requiring a plumbing hole.
Now I'll need to transfer that mark to the back of the board so I can get the hole saw to cut it properly.
Taking that philosophy into my grey tank installation brought me to yesterday's work - a better support for the tank.
The natural support of course would have been a full surface flat floor, and I decided against that so I could get a slope for draining - due to the nature of my custom tank and the exit fitting.
Alternatively, I could have elevated the forward edge of a flat support with spacer blocks to support it, but I kind of wanted the tank bottom more exposed to the air pockets beneath for reasons associated to freezing.
As AnEv (and perhaps you) had noticed, the single support at mid tank was probably not the best long-term installation solution. Upon point out, I had to agree. And I wasn't yet exactly happy with my first resolution, that of two extra supports that had a relatively narrow support surface.
Hey, I've knelt bared kneed on the narrow edge of an attic truss more than once and granted, letting your knee-caps and cartilage and soft tissue form around the board greatly enhances balance, especially when you have to lean waaaaay forward or sideways to press fiberglass batts into just the right position, but I'm here to tell you, THAT would not be a good long-term solution. And that's BEFORE I fill myself with 21 gallons of water, or whatever beverage I must drink to ever do THAT kind of job again!
So here's what I did.
And here's how I got there.
First I found the correct angle of the slope. The first attempt was 5 degrees off the 90 degree right angle on the table saw. Five was too much, so the next test piece was 2.5 degrees. Too little. The final angle was 3.5 degrees and that fit the slope on the level.
The boards were all cut from 1.5" scrap stock. The high point was 1.5" and the mid-point 3/4". So I made supports - each 1/4" higher or lower - and that gave me two additional supports between each original.
The two smaller ones were stapled to the floor, but the two taller were pre-drilled and screwed down.
One thing I'm not sure I like is the potential for dust, debris, etc to hide under here. But with it sealed good from the outside I'm hoping it will stay relatively clean and at least I can blow air back under to flush stuff out, or use a narrow attachment on a vacuum.
Here's the bottom of the tank surface with the slight inward bow. It's not very noticeably in the photo. In fact, if memory serves me, the inability of the photo to indicate the bow's severity was ONE of the factors that prompted me to use it instead of returning the tank. Overall I'm happy with it and I believe the bow will be of negligible effect.
The tank slipped right back into position and snapped in place.
I feel much better about that tank support now.
I raised the front of the camper with the floor jack about 3/8" to level it front to back. Then I used my 12" level with the 1/8" and 1/4" per foot graduations on the bubble scale to get the proper 1/4" per foot slope on the drain pipe - and projected it to the next board requiring a plumbing hole.
Now I'll need to transfer that mark to the back of the board so I can get the hole saw to cut it properly.
I really appreciate your suggestions and comments guys.
I suppose there are MANY times readers have thought, "OH NO! DAVE! DON'T DO THAT!" and by then it's often too late. It's my hope that at those times, the final thought is more often than not - "hmmm well, that worked out better than I thought it would", or "Oh - I'm glad he ended up coming back and fixing THAT!" Or something similar. ๐
But I'm one of those guys who sits on the very precipice of knowing just enough to get myself in trouble, and knowing just a little bit more so watch and learn. LOL
But let's address each of your suggestions one at a time.
AnEv - the grey tank floor support. Yes, I have questioned that very issue. The tank is made from what polyethelene? Is that the milk jug stuff? (I get my poly's confused sometimes). But it is thick walled and pretty heavy. Maybe as thick as 3/8"? Maybe that's pressing it, but the edges are very strong so I'm unconcerned about the battery weight, BECAUSE of the fact that the battery tray will ALSO be screwed via cleats to the side walls. And I suppose once that's done there won't really be any weight downward on the tank as it will ALL be supported by the screws, but that it just holds a tight position over the tank. However - the weight of the water itself in the tank is something I may not have considered in the initial install.
I was JUST a wee bit disappointed in the tank manufacturer as the bottom of the tank bows slightly inward; enough to have slightly reduced volume. Like a kid caught smoking, I didn't want to say anything to you guys - I figured one or more of you might take me out to the woodshed or something, so I covered it up and took no pictures and now I feel foolish. I should have come clean and returned it and.... well - just kidding, but I did try heating that surface under pressure and allowing it to cool filled with air pressure inside. It kind of came back to bowed once the air was removed. I figured water inside would add enough weight to expand it over time and I thought the midpoint support alone would even allow it to expand OUTWARD perhaps, even improving a little flow perhaps with it's elevated angle.
But you make a good point on the single support and the weight on that one support and therefore I took out the tank and started up making some additional supports.
Here's how the tank came out.
These supports were simply some scrap I had taken out of Lil' Queeny and already had an angled edge that I incorporated into the pieces used. I cut them to size on the table saw and at about the halfway size in between the surrounding support heights. As it turned out, due to the measurement and the angle on the boards, they both fit best slightly in from center to right around the battery area. That's a pretty good compromise on position I suppose. The angle as seen here...
actually looks a little worse than does the support board WITHOUT an angle as seen here...
so I'll probably play around with these some more before I secure and prime them. And since they turned out as they did, I might just replace their narrower nature with a full 1.5" wide support as on the others.
I still like having the airspace open below, but that's probably not even needed for freezing concerns. But you never can tell as sometimes we decide on a lark to go do something nuts, like Alaska in winter - huh Garry? (Just kidding - THAT'S not going to happen again). ๐
Incidentally and granted the furniture was removed when I started it, but the tank removal almost took less time than it took to take pictures! That's after the pipe redo with the no-hub couplers of course.
AnEv - The pipe dope. I'm glad you noticed the sudden appearances made by the various players (tools, materials) in the pictures. They have been intended. And I thought I had not only a picture of the pipe dope, but the actual pipe with the dope on the threads! It seems like sometimes my Google+ photo auto backup skips some pictures overnight and I miss posting some because of that. I thought that's what happened in this case, but going back over the pics on my phone gallery it didn't show up there either. So that must have been one of those moments when I thought, "Oooo, I should take a picture of that", just to immediately forget and go on to something else.
So - here's the shy little guy!
I read the label before use, but after your comment I re-read it. Sure enough, it says it's meant for plastic including polyethylene and PVC but NOT ABS. So again, thanks for the point out.
Having said that, I'm not sure I like the feel of the joint on THIS one either. I think I'm going to try Teflon tape. Anyone have suggestions for this issue? It just feels like if you are going to damage the threads before it get's tight enough ๐
Garry - Traps and Vents. Yep, to trap or not to trap, that is the question. Whether it is better to give or receive or to suffer the stings and arrows of the elfish kingdom... (well there you go. I don't know my Shakespeare).
I had originally planned to place a bathroom sink trap exactly where you mention - and still may! I think I might give it some check-see first to see if it becomes an issue or not. It should be pretty easy to change if so. The reason I hesitate is this.
The area could be warmed, unless it is sealed and vented for the batteries. Even sealed and vented it may well remain above freezing most of the time. I don't have enough cabinet height here for vented battery boxes. This issue is still coming to gel.
The galley sink will likely be trapped, and that run has an original vent to the outside of the camper that I'll reuse, giving the grey tank a complete vent downstream of the galley sink trap as well, so we have that going for us - which is good. ๐
And, the bathroom sink is currently vented. It is simply a large 1.5" pipe upwards from the sanitary tee above the propane tanks. It rises as high as possible to prevent interference with the sink basin and sits approximately 1-2" below the sink rim, but at least well above the drain pipe. I'm hoping the flow travels nicely down the large drain pipes and doesn't overflow through the vent. If it does, at least it's outside the living space and would drain through the propane tank's floor vent. I'll keep an eye on that but I think it'll do the job.
Again, thanks for the input and thoughts guys. A good deal of my effort is directly related to having the job appear positive and of successful result to those of you who are viewing and who "know a thing or two".
I suppose there are MANY times readers have thought, "OH NO! DAVE! DON'T DO THAT!" and by then it's often too late. It's my hope that at those times, the final thought is more often than not - "hmmm well, that worked out better than I thought it would", or "Oh - I'm glad he ended up coming back and fixing THAT!" Or something similar. ๐
But I'm one of those guys who sits on the very precipice of knowing just enough to get myself in trouble, and knowing just a little bit more so watch and learn. LOL
But let's address each of your suggestions one at a time.
AnEv - the grey tank floor support. Yes, I have questioned that very issue. The tank is made from what polyethelene? Is that the milk jug stuff? (I get my poly's confused sometimes). But it is thick walled and pretty heavy. Maybe as thick as 3/8"? Maybe that's pressing it, but the edges are very strong so I'm unconcerned about the battery weight, BECAUSE of the fact that the battery tray will ALSO be screwed via cleats to the side walls. And I suppose once that's done there won't really be any weight downward on the tank as it will ALL be supported by the screws, but that it just holds a tight position over the tank. However - the weight of the water itself in the tank is something I may not have considered in the initial install.
I was JUST a wee bit disappointed in the tank manufacturer as the bottom of the tank bows slightly inward; enough to have slightly reduced volume. Like a kid caught smoking, I didn't want to say anything to you guys - I figured one or more of you might take me out to the woodshed or something, so I covered it up and took no pictures and now I feel foolish. I should have come clean and returned it and.... well - just kidding, but I did try heating that surface under pressure and allowing it to cool filled with air pressure inside. It kind of came back to bowed once the air was removed. I figured water inside would add enough weight to expand it over time and I thought the midpoint support alone would even allow it to expand OUTWARD perhaps, even improving a little flow perhaps with it's elevated angle.
But you make a good point on the single support and the weight on that one support and therefore I took out the tank and started up making some additional supports.
Here's how the tank came out.
These supports were simply some scrap I had taken out of Lil' Queeny and already had an angled edge that I incorporated into the pieces used. I cut them to size on the table saw and at about the halfway size in between the surrounding support heights. As it turned out, due to the measurement and the angle on the boards, they both fit best slightly in from center to right around the battery area. That's a pretty good compromise on position I suppose. The angle as seen here...
actually looks a little worse than does the support board WITHOUT an angle as seen here...
so I'll probably play around with these some more before I secure and prime them. And since they turned out as they did, I might just replace their narrower nature with a full 1.5" wide support as on the others.
I still like having the airspace open below, but that's probably not even needed for freezing concerns. But you never can tell as sometimes we decide on a lark to go do something nuts, like Alaska in winter - huh Garry? (Just kidding - THAT'S not going to happen again). ๐
Incidentally and granted the furniture was removed when I started it, but the tank removal almost took less time than it took to take pictures! That's after the pipe redo with the no-hub couplers of course.
AnEv - The pipe dope. I'm glad you noticed the sudden appearances made by the various players (tools, materials) in the pictures. They have been intended. And I thought I had not only a picture of the pipe dope, but the actual pipe with the dope on the threads! It seems like sometimes my Google+ photo auto backup skips some pictures overnight and I miss posting some because of that. I thought that's what happened in this case, but going back over the pics on my phone gallery it didn't show up there either. So that must have been one of those moments when I thought, "Oooo, I should take a picture of that", just to immediately forget and go on to something else.
So - here's the shy little guy!
I read the label before use, but after your comment I re-read it. Sure enough, it says it's meant for plastic including polyethylene and PVC but NOT ABS. So again, thanks for the point out.
Having said that, I'm not sure I like the feel of the joint on THIS one either. I think I'm going to try Teflon tape. Anyone have suggestions for this issue? It just feels like if you are going to damage the threads before it get's tight enough ๐
Garry - Traps and Vents. Yep, to trap or not to trap, that is the question. Whether it is better to give or receive or to suffer the stings and arrows of the elfish kingdom... (well there you go. I don't know my Shakespeare).
I had originally planned to place a bathroom sink trap exactly where you mention - and still may! I think I might give it some check-see first to see if it becomes an issue or not. It should be pretty easy to change if so. The reason I hesitate is this.
The area could be warmed, unless it is sealed and vented for the batteries. Even sealed and vented it may well remain above freezing most of the time. I don't have enough cabinet height here for vented battery boxes. This issue is still coming to gel.
The galley sink will likely be trapped, and that run has an original vent to the outside of the camper that I'll reuse, giving the grey tank a complete vent downstream of the galley sink trap as well, so we have that going for us - which is good. ๐
And, the bathroom sink is currently vented. It is simply a large 1.5" pipe upwards from the sanitary tee above the propane tanks. It rises as high as possible to prevent interference with the sink basin and sits approximately 1-2" below the sink rim, but at least well above the drain pipe. I'm hoping the flow travels nicely down the large drain pipes and doesn't overflow through the vent. If it does, at least it's outside the living space and would drain through the propane tank's floor vent. I'll keep an eye on that but I think it'll do the job.
Again, thanks for the input and thoughts guys. A good deal of my effort is directly related to having the job appear positive and of successful result to those of you who are viewing and who "know a thing or two".
Dave Pete wrote:
...I might mention something here. The tank materials are soft. They are made out of milk jugs...
Enjoying your thread(s). This comment though, you made about tank material seemed like an opportunity to ask about the grey tank support, and the battery 'tray' on top. It could be Im just not clear on how its working but as this progresses still leaves me wondering. Especially after seeing the picture of the batteries on top.
Its the single support mid of tank. Though the tank material is malleable, it can split. Maybe given the length and height it will be ok. Then picture of batteries on top brought it to the forefront again.
The weight (if tray actually setting on top) adding to the point loading at the mid tank support?
Most questions or puzzlement, wait long enough and you addressed (ie. the perfectly placed knot on rear structure). This one just kinda buggin me?
Dave Pete wrote:
...I've tried in past to Teflon tape these types of joints and haven't been happy with the results. I much prefer the feel and result of brush on pipe dope for these tank fittings...
In all the pictures, the different cans of glue etc have no problem jumping in front of the camera, however the pipe dope seems to be camera shy. As you didnt mention only asking. Not sure on the tank material but the PVC threaded connections, regular pipe dope not intended specifically to be used on plastic threads can lead to failure, NON pressure less likely. Just curious and for other readers. I dont want to side track, threads and sealants can lead to a whole topic on its own.
Waste Water - Drain Waste Vent (DWV) Routing and Planning - Galley
Today I'm still on waste water. After setting up a system for the bathroom, I turned to the galley. There's nothing like placing the furniture and partition walls and cabinets to learn pretty darn quick just how limited I've made extra space. Hey - that's all part of the challenge huh? And that becomes fun.
They said we couldn't go to the moon!
Seriously, planning out and engineering an RV's systems is quite a mental process. There was a day when I couldn't do a thing until it was all laid out on paper (I exaggerate but you get my drift).
But these days it seems I subconsciously fight too much paper planning and I'm better at planning as I do it. I think we all have varied levels of some similar thing in how we go about what we do.
So cutting test pieces to size, and temporarily locating pieces that must be moved again, maybe several times, is all part of my process.
Let's start here for example.
And covered up, here's the same space.
Those are two group 24 batteries by the way. This area will even fit two group 31s now. Not yet sure what I'll use.
But why the plumbing loop? Good question. As you already know about me, I like to make things removable as modules. Let's say the grey tank needs to come out. It won't unless the cabinet around it is removed. Therefore I have to design the installation of the front cabinet around the fresh water tank so as to swing forward JUST enough that the grey tank cabinet can be removed without having to disturb the fresh water tank. So that is accommodated (I tested it.) ๐
Now with the fresh water tank area undisturbed except for a slight cabinet move, the grey tank can come out. Oh but NO - because of the drain plumbing. So in those above photos there is space to cut both horizontal runs and remove just a little material and re-install with two glued couplers. And there's enough length to do so multiple times if you plan for it as you do it. That was the first idea. Now the plan is to do so with just a couple of no-hub couplers. Those are the rubber type with worm-gear clamps. That spot will take two. And why not come straight up and elbow out? It has to do with both a 2x2 slightly in the way for the size of the fittings and no space for threading or sliding glued parts.
I decided to use numerous no-hub couplers in the grey water system. In the galley sink run there will be three-four alone - to accommodate the same modular design for accessing specific areas with minimal disruption to the rest. Maybe one or more around the shower drain. I don't think any will be needed at the dump gate because the nature of a valve gives the separation needed already.
Let's move forward.
The galley double basin sink will drain from where you see, to behind the range, and elbow to alongside the range between it and the fridge cabinet. There's space, and the tag on the range requires 0" side spacing from combustibles. Even so I think I'm doing copper behind and along the range just because it is simpler than adapting PVC and copper.
The run requires copper here.
At this spot the run alongside the range comes into the room through a hole I'll drill in the wood face. The copper fitting's outside diameter allows for not damaging the chrome frame around the range face. From the hole it will immediately elbow down and then just as immediately elbow again under the fridge cabinet face to where it extends 5-8" and ends. At that point it uses a no-hub coupler to connect to PVC which then elbows quickly to the right and across this area of the fresh water tank cabinet.
The run will be located just aft of the board shown. So the no-hub coupler mentioned will be accessible by removing the waste can. At the far right side of the tank the run will elbow to the rear and immediately downward between the tank and cabinet wall where it will run a short distance to the next no-hub coupler. From there another PVC module will connect and then elbow rearward into the under dinette floor area and no-hub couple to a run into the tank. This piece in fact.
I might mention something here. The tank materials are soft. They are made out of milk jugs. It took a lot of paper machete type assembly, but I was finally successful. Of course I'm kidding but the threads are soft.
I've tried in past to Teflon tape these types of joints and haven't been happy with the results. I much prefer the feel and result of brush on pipe dope for these tank fittings. Of course everything else gets Teflon tape, except of course propane which is a no-no. Use a good gas pipe dope on those - when any is needed - you know because many of those are compression/flare and you don't use anything extra on those.
Today I have to run to the third home center and get some materials. Then I'll have them on hand for the jobs over the next week or so as things start to really come together in here. That is to say - in the Galley and Greatroom thread, probably.
I took advantage yesterday of reorganizing all the spare parts and stuff. Now is the time to again look at exactly what I have and how it will be used. I separated like objects into individual plastic bags. The grey ones on the left are electrical, the white on the right are plumbing, etc. There's propane and fixtures some new, some original, some on the UPS truck as we speak.
Lil' Willy has recently been making some stirring sounds from time to time, but seems to still be in a deep hibernation state.
Trim pieces and extra length stuff.
Today I'm still on waste water. After setting up a system for the bathroom, I turned to the galley. There's nothing like placing the furniture and partition walls and cabinets to learn pretty darn quick just how limited I've made extra space. Hey - that's all part of the challenge huh? And that becomes fun.
They said we couldn't go to the moon!
Seriously, planning out and engineering an RV's systems is quite a mental process. There was a day when I couldn't do a thing until it was all laid out on paper (I exaggerate but you get my drift).
But these days it seems I subconsciously fight too much paper planning and I'm better at planning as I do it. I think we all have varied levels of some similar thing in how we go about what we do.
So cutting test pieces to size, and temporarily locating pieces that must be moved again, maybe several times, is all part of my process.
Let's start here for example.
And covered up, here's the same space.
Those are two group 24 batteries by the way. This area will even fit two group 31s now. Not yet sure what I'll use.
But why the plumbing loop? Good question. As you already know about me, I like to make things removable as modules. Let's say the grey tank needs to come out. It won't unless the cabinet around it is removed. Therefore I have to design the installation of the front cabinet around the fresh water tank so as to swing forward JUST enough that the grey tank cabinet can be removed without having to disturb the fresh water tank. So that is accommodated (I tested it.) ๐
Now with the fresh water tank area undisturbed except for a slight cabinet move, the grey tank can come out. Oh but NO - because of the drain plumbing. So in those above photos there is space to cut both horizontal runs and remove just a little material and re-install with two glued couplers. And there's enough length to do so multiple times if you plan for it as you do it. That was the first idea. Now the plan is to do so with just a couple of no-hub couplers. Those are the rubber type with worm-gear clamps. That spot will take two. And why not come straight up and elbow out? It has to do with both a 2x2 slightly in the way for the size of the fittings and no space for threading or sliding glued parts.
I decided to use numerous no-hub couplers in the grey water system. In the galley sink run there will be three-four alone - to accommodate the same modular design for accessing specific areas with minimal disruption to the rest. Maybe one or more around the shower drain. I don't think any will be needed at the dump gate because the nature of a valve gives the separation needed already.
Let's move forward.
The galley double basin sink will drain from where you see, to behind the range, and elbow to alongside the range between it and the fridge cabinet. There's space, and the tag on the range requires 0" side spacing from combustibles. Even so I think I'm doing copper behind and along the range just because it is simpler than adapting PVC and copper.
The run requires copper here.
At this spot the run alongside the range comes into the room through a hole I'll drill in the wood face. The copper fitting's outside diameter allows for not damaging the chrome frame around the range face. From the hole it will immediately elbow down and then just as immediately elbow again under the fridge cabinet face to where it extends 5-8" and ends. At that point it uses a no-hub coupler to connect to PVC which then elbows quickly to the right and across this area of the fresh water tank cabinet.
The run will be located just aft of the board shown. So the no-hub coupler mentioned will be accessible by removing the waste can. At the far right side of the tank the run will elbow to the rear and immediately downward between the tank and cabinet wall where it will run a short distance to the next no-hub coupler. From there another PVC module will connect and then elbow rearward into the under dinette floor area and no-hub couple to a run into the tank. This piece in fact.
I might mention something here. The tank materials are soft. They are made out of milk jugs. It took a lot of paper machete type assembly, but I was finally successful. Of course I'm kidding but the threads are soft.
I've tried in past to Teflon tape these types of joints and haven't been happy with the results. I much prefer the feel and result of brush on pipe dope for these tank fittings. Of course everything else gets Teflon tape, except of course propane which is a no-no. Use a good gas pipe dope on those - when any is needed - you know because many of those are compression/flare and you don't use anything extra on those.
Today I have to run to the third home center and get some materials. Then I'll have them on hand for the jobs over the next week or so as things start to really come together in here. That is to say - in the Galley and Greatroom thread, probably.
I took advantage yesterday of reorganizing all the spare parts and stuff. Now is the time to again look at exactly what I have and how it will be used. I separated like objects into individual plastic bags. The grey ones on the left are electrical, the white on the right are plumbing, etc. There's propane and fixtures some new, some original, some on the UPS truck as we speak.
Lil' Willy has recently been making some stirring sounds from time to time, but seems to still be in a deep hibernation state.
Trim pieces and extra length stuff.
Plumbing - Waste Water - Bathroom Sink Drain Waste Vent (DWV).
I had purchased some "Smooth-Bore" flexible hose from Amazon in the 1.5" size. I figured I could mate it to my 1.5" waste water tank fittings and adapt it down to the two 1.25" fittings at the bath sink and at the tank entry for the bath sink.
Went shopping the other day. I bought those grey male pipe thread (MPT) to barbed fittings used in irrigation hose, but the black poly pipe for the same job is too stiff and kind of keeps a slight bend from the manufactured coil the hose comes in. Not flexible enough for hose and not straight enough for pipe, if you know what I mean.
But I figured the barbs would fit the smooth-bore brand hose I got through Amazon. It doesn't. The barbs are slightly too big.
Since I don't have a heat gun (I know - right?), I went upstairs and got DW's Tim-The-Tool-Man's Hair Dryer/Blower that I've used before on a couple pieces of the sprinkler system at the house and even as a TC heater in Alaska.
The smooth-bore seemed REALLY weak after heating and tore easily and STILL didn't fit the barb well or easily. So I changed plans. No barbs, no smooth-bore flexible hose. By the way, it's the same stuff I saw on my neighbors gravity fill connection, something I'm not doing so I might be sending it back.
What else? What can I use? Needs to be minimal size for restricted space availability. Needs to be big enough for good water flow - can't be rubber automotive fuel line in other words.
I don't need the strength of Schedule 40 basic household PVC pipe, but Schedule 30 PVC (rigid sprinkler/irrigation pipe) doesn't exactly come with all the typical household fittings and connections as is found in the SCH 40 stuff. ABS? How's it compare to PVC? Seems slightly lighter. Older technology. Becoming less common. More effort to match it and PVC.
How about fittings? Outside diameters are important. How will that all fit? Can I get by with 1.25"? But I couldn't find any. My town's three home centers each have their own pros and cons in what they carry. I couldn't find the 1.25" at the two I checked, no need to check the third - wastes too much shopping time when you already know the answer.
So okay I settled on the 1.5". Picked up a few pieces and went to work.
The next day when I went next door to check out the neighbor's camper lift system I saw where he used 1.25 PVC on a segment of his camper. I said, "Where did you get that?" He told me from that THIRD home center. Cripes! Oh well, partly installed - I sticking with 1.5". Probably a better choice for some household fittings too - and flow.
For better or worse the decision was made and the process begun. As it turns out - in later planning - I realized how I can use the strength of the schedule 40 to become "structurally supportive" over the fresh water tank for the step-up landing, in much the same way I used the strength of the grey tank to support the battery tray. And that was just one more dilemma I needed to work out. So it all turns out well after all.
And the ONE visible spot where my galley sink drain must enter the room (come from behind the scene) is at the bottom right of the range, and it is there I can use 1.5" COPPER for the reduced outside diameter ANYWAY! Solves another problem and adds a copper visual element. Nice!
But it all started a couple days ago when I decided to build up the regions as I went and took time off from interior furniture finishing to conclude some completion ideas at the dinette seat where the battery compartment shares space with the bathroom sink tank connection. I'm drilling a large hole in the new camper box wood at that spot and another in the bottom of the propane tank compartment so I better get the measurements right!
And part of the planning and installing and measurements include building in a 1/4" per foot slope for the drain lines. Waste water won't run uphill, not while depending on gravity it won't. And I don't have the luxury of a full household wall or floor cavity with gobs of space. Not, this has to be pretty precise!
It all starts here.
I still wanted to be able to disassemble portions of the camper for repairs, etc. without disassembling EVERYTHING so the entire plumbing build is designed with that in mind. Let's start with cutting a notch in the propane tank base board.
Then drill a 2" hole for the 1.5" SCH 40 PVC outside diameter. That leaves just a slight larger hole for caulking to go.
Here's the piece I designed to accept the inflow from the bathroom sink tailpiece, and to allow for a vent.
.
I also had to determine the height of the tail piece for clearance from propane tank interference and to allow for a 90 degree bend into the drain pipe at the BACK of the compartment where the rounded shape of the tanks provide enough space to do so.
And you have to use a specific type of cement for connecting PVC and ABS. The black stuff is ABS if you didn't know and the white is PVC. I'm assuming the basin is also PVC, but now as I write this - I don't know!
Anyway we'll get the sink in later once the counter and shower surfaces are completed, but for now it was to determine height and depth sizing.
Then I went underneath and inside and located the "hole" placement for that area. It was here that I ran into another conundrum. I had planned to provide a trap here on the warm side. But I'm leaning heavy toward venting the entire battery box and so it will be cooler and the trap could freeze. But do I really need a trap at all?
A trap prevents sewer gases from entering your living space through your drains. Instead those gases hit the water trapped in the loop and travel instead up your vent system and out the roof of the RV or house. You know, those nasty methane gases that come in all varieties and mostly stem from decomposing black water, to keep it all polite.
But I don't have a black water tank. This is grey water. And I'm sorry, but I kind of like the smell of toothpaste! Hey - that's just me. No seriously, I just don't see a lot of problems coming up out of the tank, especially since we won't be hooked up to the sewer drain. We'll dump when needed, and disconnect. This ain't a full-timing it unit. And if there are odors that can't be controlled by a good tank cleaning and sanitizing, well then I'll cross that trap when I get to it.
The vent now, as ticki2 had mention before, is a little different baby. That will create a better drain flow. And that's important.
So that's the plan, let's get back to work.
If you haven't done much PVC work you might find the following useful. Make your cuts as square as possible, but don't depend on them being square. Remove the burrs with a knife. Prep the joints with a proper solvent and use the right cement. Put cement on both surfaces in a nice even coat, not too little - not too much. Slide the parts together and twist them about a quarter turn in a smooth motion then hold. Holding tight together for just a few seconds does the trick. More than three and less than 30; you'll get the feel. Then wipe the excess for a prettier job. Usually build from one fixed location toward the other end - main stack toward fixture as a general rule.
Okay - here we go.
Then I moved outside and underneath.
And then up into the propane tank compartment to finish it up.
So that leaves room up here for a two-stage propane regulator.
And room down here for metal camper corner and tie-down brackets.
There was just not very much room for mistakes. But this will work ๐
I had purchased some "Smooth-Bore" flexible hose from Amazon in the 1.5" size. I figured I could mate it to my 1.5" waste water tank fittings and adapt it down to the two 1.25" fittings at the bath sink and at the tank entry for the bath sink.
Went shopping the other day. I bought those grey male pipe thread (MPT) to barbed fittings used in irrigation hose, but the black poly pipe for the same job is too stiff and kind of keeps a slight bend from the manufactured coil the hose comes in. Not flexible enough for hose and not straight enough for pipe, if you know what I mean.
But I figured the barbs would fit the smooth-bore brand hose I got through Amazon. It doesn't. The barbs are slightly too big.
Since I don't have a heat gun (I know - right?), I went upstairs and got DW's Tim-The-Tool-Man's Hair Dryer/Blower that I've used before on a couple pieces of the sprinkler system at the house and even as a TC heater in Alaska.
The smooth-bore seemed REALLY weak after heating and tore easily and STILL didn't fit the barb well or easily. So I changed plans. No barbs, no smooth-bore flexible hose. By the way, it's the same stuff I saw on my neighbors gravity fill connection, something I'm not doing so I might be sending it back.
What else? What can I use? Needs to be minimal size for restricted space availability. Needs to be big enough for good water flow - can't be rubber automotive fuel line in other words.
I don't need the strength of Schedule 40 basic household PVC pipe, but Schedule 30 PVC (rigid sprinkler/irrigation pipe) doesn't exactly come with all the typical household fittings and connections as is found in the SCH 40 stuff. ABS? How's it compare to PVC? Seems slightly lighter. Older technology. Becoming less common. More effort to match it and PVC.
How about fittings? Outside diameters are important. How will that all fit? Can I get by with 1.25"? But I couldn't find any. My town's three home centers each have their own pros and cons in what they carry. I couldn't find the 1.25" at the two I checked, no need to check the third - wastes too much shopping time when you already know the answer.
So okay I settled on the 1.5". Picked up a few pieces and went to work.
The next day when I went next door to check out the neighbor's camper lift system I saw where he used 1.25 PVC on a segment of his camper. I said, "Where did you get that?" He told me from that THIRD home center. Cripes! Oh well, partly installed - I sticking with 1.5". Probably a better choice for some household fittings too - and flow.
For better or worse the decision was made and the process begun. As it turns out - in later planning - I realized how I can use the strength of the schedule 40 to become "structurally supportive" over the fresh water tank for the step-up landing, in much the same way I used the strength of the grey tank to support the battery tray. And that was just one more dilemma I needed to work out. So it all turns out well after all.
And the ONE visible spot where my galley sink drain must enter the room (come from behind the scene) is at the bottom right of the range, and it is there I can use 1.5" COPPER for the reduced outside diameter ANYWAY! Solves another problem and adds a copper visual element. Nice!
But it all started a couple days ago when I decided to build up the regions as I went and took time off from interior furniture finishing to conclude some completion ideas at the dinette seat where the battery compartment shares space with the bathroom sink tank connection. I'm drilling a large hole in the new camper box wood at that spot and another in the bottom of the propane tank compartment so I better get the measurements right!
And part of the planning and installing and measurements include building in a 1/4" per foot slope for the drain lines. Waste water won't run uphill, not while depending on gravity it won't. And I don't have the luxury of a full household wall or floor cavity with gobs of space. Not, this has to be pretty precise!
It all starts here.
I still wanted to be able to disassemble portions of the camper for repairs, etc. without disassembling EVERYTHING so the entire plumbing build is designed with that in mind. Let's start with cutting a notch in the propane tank base board.
Then drill a 2" hole for the 1.5" SCH 40 PVC outside diameter. That leaves just a slight larger hole for caulking to go.
Here's the piece I designed to accept the inflow from the bathroom sink tailpiece, and to allow for a vent.
.I also had to determine the height of the tail piece for clearance from propane tank interference and to allow for a 90 degree bend into the drain pipe at the BACK of the compartment where the rounded shape of the tanks provide enough space to do so.
And you have to use a specific type of cement for connecting PVC and ABS. The black stuff is ABS if you didn't know and the white is PVC. I'm assuming the basin is also PVC, but now as I write this - I don't know!
Anyway we'll get the sink in later once the counter and shower surfaces are completed, but for now it was to determine height and depth sizing.
Then I went underneath and inside and located the "hole" placement for that area. It was here that I ran into another conundrum. I had planned to provide a trap here on the warm side. But I'm leaning heavy toward venting the entire battery box and so it will be cooler and the trap could freeze. But do I really need a trap at all?
A trap prevents sewer gases from entering your living space through your drains. Instead those gases hit the water trapped in the loop and travel instead up your vent system and out the roof of the RV or house. You know, those nasty methane gases that come in all varieties and mostly stem from decomposing black water, to keep it all polite.
But I don't have a black water tank. This is grey water. And I'm sorry, but I kind of like the smell of toothpaste! Hey - that's just me. No seriously, I just don't see a lot of problems coming up out of the tank, especially since we won't be hooked up to the sewer drain. We'll dump when needed, and disconnect. This ain't a full-timing it unit. And if there are odors that can't be controlled by a good tank cleaning and sanitizing, well then I'll cross that trap when I get to it.
The vent now, as ticki2 had mention before, is a little different baby. That will create a better drain flow. And that's important.
So that's the plan, let's get back to work.
If you haven't done much PVC work you might find the following useful. Make your cuts as square as possible, but don't depend on them being square. Remove the burrs with a knife. Prep the joints with a proper solvent and use the right cement. Put cement on both surfaces in a nice even coat, not too little - not too much. Slide the parts together and twist them about a quarter turn in a smooth motion then hold. Holding tight together for just a few seconds does the trick. More than three and less than 30; you'll get the feel. Then wipe the excess for a prettier job. Usually build from one fixed location toward the other end - main stack toward fixture as a general rule.
Okay - here we go.
Then I moved outside and underneath.
And then up into the propane tank compartment to finish it up.
So that leaves room up here for a two-stage propane regulator.
And room down here for metal camper corner and tie-down brackets.
There was just not very much room for mistakes. But this will work ๐
