BEV battery technologies changing fast

[BenK]

GM's new battery news is exciting

Great that they went outside the box in form factor, but the risk as always...will this become a commodity level form factor...AKA Beta vs VHS

One of the why's OEM'S wait to let the scouts
to the arrows and financial risks. Though if successful, the risk becomes huge returns

Here is an exciting one https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-presents-groundbreaking-all-solid-state-battery-technology-t...

My favorite, saline batteries, has stalled on their electrode tech

Hope Tusk's giga factories can be retooled quickly...and if he has a retrofit plan.

[Reisender]

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

Reisender wrote:


Well, it would be nice to see. But they have some catching up to do. The Cadillac presentation was just pushed back, the disappointing Bolt makeover was a definite set back and Bolt sales are way off from expectations and they are having difficulty producing even 20,000 EV’s a year. I do think they are getting serious though. Good to see. Just not sure we’ll see lots of production in the next 3 or 4 years.

Jmho.

Thank you for your opinion. I would like to stress to others that facts are available that make opinions inaccurate.

Yes, GM has now delayed the Cadillac because of travel restrictions and public gathering restrictions related to the Covid19.

In regards to Bolt, did GM ever provide guidance on the number they wanted to sell? Yes, sales were down over prior year. Maybe they were not profitable to sell. Do you have production numbers? Are you sure that they had trouble producing 20,000?

Data is available. I always love your opinions. They are never biased, and I often wonder if Elon has you on the payroll and you are assigned to RV.NET.

I believe I read Bolt sales were around 19500 for 2019, down a few thousand from a couple years earlier. Best to google it for accuracy. The remake should help a bit but talking to some Bolt owners who were thinking of trading in, they feel 2021 will see a significant makeover. These folks love their bolts and are either replacing or adding a bolt to the driveway. One is a Chevy dealer employee so I would assume he is in the know. To me the best thing about the Bolt is the flat floor cargo area when the seats are down. Lack of ACC is a big miss although one of the guys said that is fixed or coming soon. The price is probably about 12000 bucks to high but I get the impression one can can dicker the price, unlike Tesla.

We have had nothing but major problems with any new GM product we have bought so I am biased away from them. I do read good reviews on them (bolts) and people seem to like them so at the end of the day my opinion is worth what you pay for it. 🙂

Cheers.

[Dadoffourgirls]

Reisender wrote:


Well, it would be nice to see. But they have some catching up to do. The Cadillac presentation was just pushed back, the disappointing Bolt makeover was a definite set back and Bolt sales are way off from expectations and they are having difficulty producing even 20,000 EV’s a year. I do think they are getting serious though. Good to see. Just not sure we’ll see lots of production in the next 3 or 4 years.

Jmho.

Thank you for your opinion. I would like to stress to others that facts are available that make opinions inaccurate.

Yes, GM has now delayed the Cadillac because of travel restrictions and public gathering restrictions related to the Covid19.

In regards to Bolt, did GM ever provide guidance on the number they wanted to sell? Yes, sales were down over prior year. Maybe they were not profitable to sell. Do you have production numbers? Are you sure that they had trouble producing 20,000?

Data is available. I always love your opinions. They are never biased, and I often wonder if Elon has you on the payroll and you are assigned to RV.NET.

[time2roll]

I agree the salt battery could provide more energy density based on operating at a wider voltage range. Although lithium energy drops like a rock at the cut-off voltage so I am not sure if you lose much.

Solid state battery has a lot of promise. If this works it will be in phones etc a few years before it scales up to vehicles and utility energy packs. Tesla would need to switch technology.... and might be the first to do so.

[BenK]

Ok...now move away from just looking at the batteries and now look at these 2 batteries within a controller managed system as in your analogy...AKA in a car

The Tusk lithium battery would have the controller switch off the battery as you said...but a saline battery's controller can continue to drain that battery. Thereby providing even more milage than a regular, wet lithium battery

Looking like the transition from wet lithium to solid state with Samsung announcing a solid state battery for their up coming cell phones

https://www.pcmag.com/news/samsung-develops-900wh-solid-state-battery?amp=true

This quote is the basis for my comment

pcmag wrote:

The dominance of lithium-ion batteries may be coming to an abrupt end if Samsung's latest prototype solid-state battery makes it to market.


Snip...


Samsung's researchers and engineers are focused on continuing to "develop and refine" solid-state battery materials and manufacturing with a view to first using them in electric vehicles.

Panasonic has some news articles on solid state batteries and publicly announced a partnership with an automotive OEM

I expect more auto OEM'S to partner likewise.

Hope they get together and settle on a family of standard form factors

[time2roll]

BenK wrote:
Some saline batteries can be discharged to zero with no ill effects, while current lithium batteries would be ruined

100% discharged lithium is not a battery discharged to zero volts. Fully discharged is within the safe zone without damage. Vehicle computer will open a relay before any damage is done. This will happen as you drive if you dare.

[Reisender]

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

Groover wrote:

BenK wrote:
GM's new battery news is exciting

Hope Tusk's giga factories can be retooled quickly...and if he has a retrofit plan.

Tesla has been investing aggressively in battery tech and is expected to make some major announcements before the end of April. And this tech will probably be in production before the end of the year, if not already. I think GM is talking 4 to 5 years out. I hope that GM succeeds but I have given up on them after watching their stock do essentially nothing since they went public again.

Tesla won't be needing to do battery retrofits any more than GM has been updating engines in 5 year old cars, which is zilch.

Did you read anything? GM is talking next year.

Well, it would be nice to see. But they have some catching up to do. The Cadillac presentation was just pushed back, the disappointing Bolt makeover was a definite set back and Bolt sales are way off from expectations and they are having difficulty producing even 20,000 EV’s a year. I do think they are getting serious though. Good to see. Just not sure we’ll see lots of production in the next 3 or 4 years.

Jmho.

[Dadoffourgirls]

Groover wrote:

BenK wrote:
GM's new battery news is exciting

Hope Tusk's giga factories can be retooled quickly...and if he has a retrofit plan.

Tesla has been investing aggressively in battery tech and is expected to make some major announcements before the end of April. And this tech will probably be in production before the end of the year, if not already. I think GM is talking 4 to 5 years out. I hope that GM succeeds but I have given up on them after watching their stock do essentially nothing since they went public again.

Tesla won't be needing to do battery retrofits any more than GM has been updating engines in 5 year old cars, which is zilch.

Did you read anything? GM is talking next year.

[Reisender]

Tesla is hosting a battery day in April or May. There may be some interesting battery tech info then. Fun to watch the industry change so fast.

[BenK]

Amazing...I don't see any relationship between replacing a fuel storage device with an engine replacement...weird comparing apples to oranges...at least they (oranges and apples) are similar in form factor...


Discharge and charge characteristics of solid state lithium are not well known to me yet. So won't comment at this time

Again...comparing the discharge characteristics of existing battery is stuck in that box thinking. Some saline batteries can be discharged to zero with no ill effects, while current lithium batteries would be ruined


Blind love and/or hate for any OEM will have likewise from the other side(s). My side...think Tusk is intelligent and nifty ideas...but not as smart as he/others think...dislike his management and metrics


IP is IP, or science & technology is science & technology...it does matter on its implementation, which includes management decisions...some times on pure luck

[Groover]

BenK wrote:
GM's new battery news is exciting

Hope Tusk's giga factories can be retooled quickly...and if he has a retrofit plan.

Tesla has been investing aggressively in battery tech and is expected to make some major announcements before the end of April. And this tech will probably be in production before the end of the year, if not already. I think GM is talking 4 to 5 years out. I hope that GM succeeds but I have given up on them after watching their stock do essentially nothing since they went public again.

Tesla won't be needing to do battery retrofits any more than GM has been updating engines in 5 year old cars, which is zilch.

[Groover]

time2roll wrote:

pnichols wrote:
Note the estimated recharge lifetime of only 1000 cycles.

This is not anywhere near enough - in my opinion. If one was to "top up" their EV battery once a day every day - just to feel good with regards to always leaving home with their EV battery at the 100% charge level (like we do with our smartphones) - then the EV battery would only be good for a little over 3 years (3 X 365 days = 1095 days = 1095 recharge cycles).

A charge cycle life of 3000 or more cycles would be more like it ... to go along with the estimated 800km EV range.

Charge cycle is based on 100% discharge equivalent. So the 400 mile battery goes 400,000 miles before replacement. Most vehicles are long done before that mark.

Using 100% cycle is also the worst way to treat a battery. Since few people drive 400 miles every day most users will only run 70-80 percent cycle, charging at home on a regular basis using a moderate charge rate. This could easily stretch battery life past 600,000 miles.

[BenK]

You are thinking inside the existing lithium battery IP...liquid

This is outside of that box...this IP is solid state

They claim 50% smaller in volume and higher power density


Note on this graph where solid state is in reference


https://images.app.goo.gl/bN4znPWGJT998WMY6

Meaning they can package in less space and have same/similar power...or in same/similar space and have double the power

Plus, the form factor is different from the current cylindrical lithium battery. Meaning that bag is more space efficent, but no data yet on how they will manage the thermal system


2plus...since better firm factor...less wires/terminations/etc. I've not found any packaging form factor information yet

Current info summary...

Higher power density

Smaller form factor. Half the space with same rating...or same space with double the rating

Charges faster

Lower cost materials and lower cost to manufacture

[valhalla360]

Cost and size is still a major component...That's great if it can do 600miles on a charge but if the battery pack costs $50k, it's a non-starter.

Also, to get 600 miles, how big is the battery pack. If you have to replace the back seat with a battery pack, that's a major trade off. For trucks to get 600miles, particularly fully loaded or towing, could still mean a massive size and weight factor.

It does address the fast charging issue as 600miles is 8-10hrs of driving, so that should address probably 95% of long road trips as long as you can find an overnight charging station to park at.

[free_radical]

BenK wrote:
GM's new battery news is exciting

Great that they went outside the box in form factor, but the risk as always...will this become a commodity level form factor...AKA Beta vs VHS

One of the why's OEM'S wait to let the scouts
to the arrows and financial risks. Though if successful, the risk becomes huge returns

Here is an exciting one https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-presents-groundbreaking-all-solid-state-battery-technology-t...

My favorite, saline batteries, has stalled on their electrode tech

Hope Tusk's giga factories can be retooled quickly...and if he has a retrofit plan.

You know what they say:
if something sounds too good to be true ...

Let us know when GM has as many EV cars on the road as Tesla
Id bet any money it wont hapen ever