Bully Dog and SCT Settles With Feds

[Dadoffourgirls]

Derive Systems on Monday agreed to pay $6.25 million to improve internal compliance procedures and pay a civil penalty of $300,000 to settle charges that it sold 363,000 aftermarket emissions control defeat device software for cars and trucks, the EPA and Department of Justice said.

Derive manufactured and sold software designed to access and overwrite original vehicle manufacturers' software for monitoring vehicles' onboard diagnostics of emissions control to comply with the Clean Air Act. The products were sold under the brand names Bully Dog and SCT. Derive's software enabled users to remove emission control components that reduce tailpipe emissions, including catalysts, diesel particulate filters, exhaust gas recirculation systems, elements of onboard diagnostic systems, and other certified components.

Under the settlement, Derive must stop selling noncompliant tuners and retrofit existing tuners so that they comply with the law. It also must stop instructing consumers how to defeat emissions controls in their vehicles and train employees to comply with the law.

The EPA has made clear in recent years that it will enforce laws prohibiting modifications to certified vehicles' emissions components.

[CarterKraft]

It seems you are trying to retro-actively apply emissions law/theory to the vehicles/laws in question.

(For the record I believe we are in the same camp, and agree on the same points however the EPA is not in my camp nor do I describe to their way of thinking.)

For the companies to profit from the defeat of the EPA's own mandated devices is a pretty ballsy move from my position.

And then standing on the courthouse steps telling the EPA why your deleted truck doesn't use DEF and saves the environment due to improved emissions sounds like a fools errand to me, they don't want input they want compliance.

I am pretty sure the EPA has ZERO care as to how much fuel we use per year, I would argue that they worse off fuel consumption gets the easier it gets to do there job (create beat down laws) and unpractical mandates for lower mileage numbers and emissions. Self fulfilling prophecy if you will.

I know of one of the vendors in the diesel performance space that purposely never collected a dime for there emissions defeat devices because to do so would land you in a lawsuit...

I hope you don't take me as argumentative, I don't think the EPA or any .gov entity for that matter cares much about what I have to say post elections.

[ShinerBock]

Never mind, I found it. It was with the 2010 L96 6.0L. The cam phasers allowed for valve overlap which allowed for in cylinder EGR similar to the 2004.5-2007 Cummins 5.9L.

[ShinerBock]

DBH_MI wrote:
"In fact all of the HD truck gasers have one...".

This is incorrect. My 2016 Chevrolet 3500 with the 6.0 liter gas engine does not have a separate EGR system.

It seems you are correct. When did they change that to internal valve controlled EGR?

[DBH_MI]

"In fact all of the HD truck gasers have one...".

This is incorrect. My 2016 Chevrolet 3500 with the 6.0 liter gas engine does not have a separate EGR system.

[ShinerBock]

CarterKraft wrote:

But would you say a non cerified gas engine tune on a stock engine is the same as a tune to delete/or deactivate emissions equipment?

Yes, and even worse depending on the engine. In the case of direct injected engines, studies like Tuv Nord's 2012 report showing many emitting up to 10 times more PM than diesel. Gas engines(even with a cat) also emit more CO2 than diesels by nature which is what harms the environment more than PM or NOx.

Diesels also use less barrels of oil due their efficiency and even less when deleted due to the 2-3 mpg improvement so the added emissions for making those extra barrels of oil should be in the equation of overall emissions as well. Also, you have to take the factor that since a deleted diesel doesn't use DEF, then you don't have to factor in all of the waste and emissions from making and transporting DEF along with the plastic containers it comes in.

The one thing that diesels do emit a lot of is NOx which is harmful to humans in large quantities, but harmless in low quantities where it has time to dissipate into the stratosphere where it is good ozone. If you don't live in a heavily populated area, then you aren't putting enough in the air to impact anyone.

CarterKraft wrote:
You can't say a deleted diesel burns cleaner than a stock one or we wouldn't have put DPF's/SCR on them in the first place.

I never said that so I am not sure where you are getting that from.

CarterKraft wrote:
When is the last time a modern gasoline engine had EGR?

Many modern gas engines have EGR's. In fact all of the HD truck gasers have one, and all non-GDI half ton engines half them as well.

CarterKraft wrote:
A tuned gasoline engine with cats and all emissions equipment in tact is allot different than a stock tuned diesel with emissions equipment removed/deactivated.

Not always especially on cold starts. You see cats have to be at a certain temp before they can actually work. In order to get the cat to operating temp quicker, most modern gas engines are prgrammed to run rich and dump a lot of added fuel similar to the fuel being dumped on a diesel when you see black smoke. The only difference is that you cannot see it on a gas engine, but just a s a tree in the woods, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

ALso, cats are wear items that degrade over time. I can guarantee you that there are many 10+ year gas engines out there that are spewing way more environmentally harmful emissions(aside from NOx) than a modern deleted diesel.

[CarterKraft]

ShinerBock wrote:

CarterKraft wrote:

All the gas engine performance parts go out of their way to sell products that comply (carb ratings etc.) while diesel tuners knowingly sell defeat devices for brand new trucks, hardly a "offroad" application.

This is false. Most if not all gas tuners like Bully Dog and SCT cause your gas engine to put out higher emissions and hardly any of them are CARB certified. Some gas engine performance parts parts are CARB certified, but many aren't.

But would you say a non cerified gas engine tune on a stock engine is the same as a tune to delete/or deactivate emissions equipment?

You can't say a deleted diesel burns cleaner than a stock one or we wouldn't have put DPF's/SCR on them in the first place.

When is the last time a modern gasoline engine had EGR?

A tuned gasoline engine with cats and all emissions equipment in tact is allot different than a stock tuned diesel with emissions equipment removed/deactivated.

[jerem0621]

Good!

[goducks10]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Good for the EPA if they can get these morons off the road that like to roll the coal out on the highways. Black smoke was never smart.

We see this all the time on Dmax/PSD and Dodge/Cummins websites with punks bragging about smoking someone out....just 'cause they can.

x2

[camperdave]

I've got a tuner for my v10. Quite certain it's not carb compliant...

It does make my truck run better and probably cleaner though. **** a-holes blowing black smoke ruin it for everyone.

[ShinerBock]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Good for the EPA if they can get these morons off the road that like to roll the coal out on the highways. Black smoke was never smart.

We see this all the time on Dmax/PSD and Dodge/Cummins websites with punks bragging about smoking someone out....just 'cause they can.

Got two tuned vehicles and neither roll coal. Just because a diesel is tuned does not mean it rolls coal. You actually have to purposely program it to roll coal in today's diesels which is a stupid waste of fuel in my opinion.

[ShinerBock]

NOx in the troposphere is bad, but NOx in the stratosphere is good. NOx has a very short life span and in most places in the US it not at high enough levels to cause any harm. However, if you live in an area with a high population density(like southern California) where it cannot dissipate into the stratosphere fast enough, then it can reach harmful levels especially on warm days.

In low population dense areas, there is just not enough NOx to do any harm. So the best thing one can do if they are worried about NOx is move away from densely populated areas. Although, according to the last EPA article I read on the sources of NOx in NE, 28% was from onroad gas engines and 19% was from onroad diesel.

[JIMNLIN]

Good for the EPA if they can get these morons off the road that like to roll the coal out on the highways. Black smoke was never smart.

We see this all the time on Dmax/PSD and Dodge/Cummins websites with punks bragging about smoking someone out....just 'cause they can.

[ShinerBock]

CarterKraft wrote:

All the gas engine performance parts go out of their way to sell products that comply (carb ratings etc.) while diesel tuners knowingly sell defeat devices for brand new trucks, hardly a "offroad" application.

This is false. Most if not all gas tuners like Bully Dog and SCT cause your gas engine to put out higher emissions and hardly any of them are CARB certified. Some gas engine performance parts parts are CARB certified, but many aren't.

[boshog]

I'll take the other side of the emissions argument. I think there is satisfaction knowing that the exhaust of my 2015 RAM 3500 Cummins is typically clearer than the air going into it. Knowing what NOX does to the human lungs I'm glad my emission system scrubs the exhaust.

The latest diesel emission systems work well and for the most part are now downstream from the engine except for some EGR which is rumored to be eliminated in a near future design.

There is no reason to tune a modern diesel with aftermarket solutions. There is no MPG gain just a power gain but come on, with the numbers coming off the showroom floor, what do you really need with more.

I'm not a tree hugger but I have grandkids and I don't want them inhaling NOX.

[CarterKraft]

My understanding of the "problem" is the vendors profiting off of violating the laws set forth.

All the gas engine performance parts go out of their way to sell products that comply (carb ratings etc.) while diesel tuners knowingly sell defeat devices for brand new trucks, hardly a "offroad" application.