Camping well below freezing - Sweden over winter

[sabconsulting]

Friends of ours have taken a job working 150 miles north of the Arctic circle in Sweden this winter. The temperature gets down to -35 Celcius.

They will be living in their small truck camper. It is a Swedish-made camper so should be capable of reasonably cold conditions, but may not be designed for -35C.

They will have electric hookup.

It is on a diesel truck. Has fresh water and propane tanks as you would expect, plus a grey water tank and a cassette toilet. Hardside, not pop-up. No slide. No basement.

I've seen various things written here about winterising campers, but I assume they are for people storing their campers unused over winter as opposed to living in them.

Does anyone have any advice for coping with these temperatures - what can they put in place in the camper before they go? What do they need to be careful of?

Thanks in advance,

Steve.

[jefe_4x4]

These are some mighty cold knowing answers to cold weather living in a TC in the above, especially the use of block foam insulation as an extra blanket strapped around and under the the base. The Swedish TC looks like it's built for the circumstances in which they find themselves. i'm certainly no expert like the folks above who have responded, but I can add what I wish we had done, or had along on some of our 'cold' TC outings. Early on, and count this as a cautionary tale, the coldest we've ever camped in was 05 deg. F. Without any winterization and we found out the hard way that the first thing to freeze up was the black tank outflow. Without the outflow, sooner or later you are stuck. Without heated tanks decide whether you are going to go:
1. Wet
2. half-wet or half-dry, take your pick
3. dry.
Without heated tanks our response has been to drain the entire water system, drink and cook with bottled water and flush the toilet with straight 100% RV antifreeze (good down to minus 40F). We have done this and it works well.....for a short while. After about a week of measuring out a tiny amount of RV antifreeze, we with our tiny tanks were done.
The only woe here is there is an expiration date certain on how many antifreeze flushes you can do without a blackwater dump of some kind. And as above, what to do if your outflow freezes.
Another thing is to take many extra bottles of propane along to plug into the system as the winter progresses.
The bottom line, as i see it is: how high is your cold pain threshold? My ancestory are a lot of Finns, and I have a high pain threshold to cold, but the cushy American lifestyle; getting older and small range of comfort level has done me in. I don't care how well insulated your camper is, if you run out of fuel for heat the temperature drops regardless. jefe

[silversand]

Crosscheck wrote:
Now just don't try and do this in Winterpeg which is not that far from the US border.

...hah hah LOL :B True!

....the further one is from the oceans and giant ocean circulation belt arriving from southern latitudes, flowing in the direction of the north ocean regions (Europe or North America), the colder the winters will be. This is why Manitoba, Saskatchewan, North Dakota, Minnesota and parts of Ontario and Quebec are so brutally cold in winter. Look at the latitude of BC (coastal) and Nova Scotia, and compare that to the latitude of Winnipeg. Now check those places for average temperature over winter...southern BC is about 360 kilometers north of Montreal, but Montreal has winter temperatures comparing with southern Siberia, and southern BC coastal (even inland as far a Osoyoos) located much further north of Montreal has January/February winter temperatures comparable to Montreal in early May. This is also why England isn't a frozen wasteland over winter: the tropical ocean currents envelope England during winter even though the latitude of say London is about the same as the frozen barren James Bay, Quebec region, where temperatures are in the -50 to (sometimes but rarely -65C) range for a chunk of the winter.

If the tropical oceanic Atlantic belt ever deviated, the British Isles would probably have to be abandoned during winter; it would be virtually unlivable there.

[silversand]

Wow. That is a pretty impressive camper, and quite well built to use in extreme cold conditions. This reminds me of the old Bigfoot campers, built for use in the Canadian north.

As suggested earlier, propping up the "tub" for winter would be good.

The only thing I would add to my earlier post, is the following:

-since camper will be used/stored off truck, pre cut 2 inch thick pieces of XPS polystyrene closed-cell foam insulation to encapsulate the camper's tub and under-wing areas. Store the pre-cut foam in the camper and assemble it at site, using 2-inch wide house envelope tape (I used this stuff when I stored our camper outside over winter for the 1st and only time; the tape held up under persistent -36C and 90 KPH winds), XPS friendly adhesive, and a belt (a ratchet tie-down around perimeter of insulation-clad tub, for safety). This would add a fantastic barrier against ground radiated cold, and frost advection (the coldest air is closest to the ground, so the camper tub, being off truck, should have extreme insulation there). In spring, just remove and store foam for future use. Measuring and cutting the XPS should take only an hour or so; assembly should be really fast, too, with 2 people working at it.

As Joerg mentions, keeping the propane from freezing will be the biggest hurdle. The large propane cylinders would need their own insulated containment.

[joerg68]

Btw, the german importer nordstar.de says it will comfortably work down to -35 C:

http://nordstar.de/warum-nordstar/die-isolierung/index.html
(link in german)

[joerg68]

Hi Steve,
the Skarosser / Nordstar campers are surely some of the best for cold weather.
Living in the camper off the truck for an extended time, the camper should be supported under the floor so the weight doesn't all rest on the jacks.

The front jacks on these campers are prone to develop leaks and, subsequently, rot. Maybe not in these cold temperatures ... but I imagine many freeze /thaw cycles would not be beneficial.

My main concern would be to keep the propane system running at all times, and to have access to sufficiently warm propane throughout. I guess once something freezes, it will be near impossible to get it running again until everything has warmed up. Says the guy who was without heat in zero celsius because of a frozen (non gaseous) butane bottle. Lesson learned there.

If the heater goes out, your friend will be very very cold very quickly - they need to have a plan for that.

The Skarosser may have the Alde liquid/water heater. I don't know how far the antifreeze in there goes, but I would clarify beforehand.

I am not sure if it will work, but I have no personal experience with that sort of cold. Someone from our german forum took one of these up to sweden over winter a couple of years ago and they ended up in a fixed building. But I know no details.

[crosscheck]

Just checked weather base for the average Jan temps for the closest town to Abisko National Park,which is -8C-14C with the lowest recorded low= -32C. So I guessed that the big Manitoba city of Winterpeg which at a guess is 1400miles south of Abisko NP, had lower average January temps, -12C-21C and I think I nailed it.

Don't know what all this has to do with the folks who plan on working over the winter in Northern Sweden but it looks more doable staying in their TC after what sabconsulting has stated are their plans for living in their TC over the winter. No folks, they are not going to die. Sounds like they have lots of services and infrastructure to lean on while they are "camping"

Now just don't try and do this in Winterpeg which is not that far from the US border.

Dave

[brholt]

insp1505 spent a winter in his AF1150 with temperatures as low as -14 F (-25 C). He talks about the preparations he made here:

Arctic Fox extreme winter preparations

[kayco53]

I myself play in the cold but working is different.When it got cold I used a motel.Worked in Prince George and north quite a few winters.

[Bumpyroad]

this reminds me of what my father claimed when he was young in Northern Minnesota. he said that they would drain out the oil to keep it semi fluid for starting the next morning. don't know if it was factual or not but I do remember visiting my uncles/cousins when I had a convertible and they insisted that I put down the top on a day that I would consider to be raw and certainly not convertible weather.
bumpy

[sabconsulting]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm not sure where my friends are at the moment, but I have posted a link for them so they can see people's comments.

Their truck is an international specification Ford Ranger (2.5 turbo diesel, no DEF). Their camper is an S Karosser:

S Karosser (Sweden)

I know people in northern Russia leave vehicles running 24x7!

He did say that -35C would be the absolute lowest, so not all the time. Here is what he writes:


I have just landed a job working in Abisko National Park in Sweden from mid November to April and we will be living in the camper for the duration. This is about 150 miles north of the Arctic Circle. Obviously having a Skarosser is going to add a few insulation points to our cause but what do I need to do to ensure a toasty winter?

Temperatures can get down to -35º but this will only be for a couple of weeks at most, generally it will be -10/20. We will be demounted and on a permanent electric hook-up. We will have access to internal facilities but the toilet and water tanks will need to be used at certain times.

My concerns are waste water - should I leave open all the time?
Legs (jacks) - are they up to surviving a full Arctic winter, can the extreme temperature do damage?
Windows/skylights should I invest in extra insulation and if so are there any pre-made to fit demountable window measurements?
Base - should I give an extra coat of weather seal - if so what do people use?

Cheers and all advice welcome especially anything I've missed 🙂




Steve.

[silversand]

...ya. The Swedish Climate Center (SMHI) is showing dramatically warmer winter temperatures in Sweden's far north since at least 1998. Its remarkable just how warm northern Sweden is becoming (relatively speaking) over winter season!

The SMHI here-->

....however(!!!), there are anomalous BRUTAL cold years from time to time interlaced with warmer winters. One thing that can't be predicted is: ...is the year one plans to work in the Swedish north going to be a brutally cold one? Or, a warmer one? Hah hah!

[Grit_dog]

Ok well apparently Swedens Arctic is tropical by comparison. Be that the case then it is certainly more "doable" than my experiences up north.
But for all you who "camp" in the cold, remember, you're recreating, don't have a schedule, sitting in the ski lodge in the evening, whatever. That's totally different than working full time, 12 hour days or whatever, outside in the winter, then add in the discomfort and work associated with being permanently stuck in a frozen can every night.
I'd love to hear of the adventure when they're done and wish them the best.

[Photomike]

LOVE all the responses, many from people that have never experienced real cold. NO you will not die at -30 if you are prepared! YES you can camp in -30. YES vehicles run at that temperature (gas & diesel) I have been doing it for years. Will it be comfortable? It can be bearable but real comfort I would say no but it all depends on what they are doing and what they expect.

The original post is way to vague to make much comment on -

1 - Are they living in the camper 12 + hours a day?
2 - Are they only sleeping in the camper?
3 - Do they need to have the water system running (they have a cassette toilet so I would not have the water system running).
4 - Do they have an emergency escape? If the camper gets real bad can they go inside a stick building for a night or two?

I have camped in those conditions and have enjoyed it for a few nights, I think if I had to do it for longer I would really modify my life to reduce the amount of time in the camper and I would completely cover up the windows & walls with heavy down filled comforters to add to the insulation.

If they have power then an electric heater is great. I use an electric heater for my main heat, the RV furnace for a back up and a cat heater for the emergency back-up.

I was camping a couple winters ago in the tcer and a guy pulls up beside me. He was 80 years old and slept in the back of his vehicle. In the morning he would go swimming in a hotel pool($5)and shower then head out for the day snowshoeing and cross country skiing and at the end of the day go to the hotel again to shower and swim, cook supper outside and sleep in the van.

[mabynack]

coolmom42 wrote:
That's just crazy. As a matter of fact, it's downright dangerous, IMHO. My advice is not to do it. Surely there are other accomodations available.

I spent 2 months in Denmark living in a tent during the winter of '80 with the military. Even though we had heaters and specialized equipment it was absolutely miserable. We had several cases of frostbite. Metal will shatter like ice. Lubricants freeze solid.

We never shut off the diesel generators because if we did they would never start again. We even changed the oil on them with the engines running.

[GordonThree]

Has the OP respond at all, or just sitting back watching the show?