Delamination

[apexadveture]

I need some advice,I have a outfitter apex 8 just under 2 years old,the sides of the camper has bubbles,looks like the mumps.
Manufacturer can't seem to fix the problem and it is getting worse,shall I seek legal advice? any body else have this problem?

Pullin my hair out

Dave

[silversand]

Gee:

This "blistering", "popping", "flaking" (and at least 29 other descriptive terminology) is happening to all manner of RVs (motorhomes; Class Cs; tow trailers; etc, etc)...it is not a specific problem that just one camper maker is having:



...so, I don't have any "irons in the fire" against any camper maker; I just want to dig down (forensically) and get to "the truth" (John 8:32) I have to add that our Outfitter Caribou 8 has been absolutely fantastic to us over its 9 years! On edit: We don't owe it anything. The minor osmotic cratering we have is, well, minor, and very easy to repair. Our rotted-out 23 sq inches of under-wing is EASILY repairable (by me). I've gotta say that knowing what kind of catastrophes I've been seeing 1st hand and here on RVnet with other manufacturers' brand new units has me kissing our Caribou (and, thanking Buddha) every time we take it out. It hasn't broke in half, nor had devastating leaking that would render it a heap of rotted scrap.

[silversand]

Hi Gee:

The process is called: osmotic or osmosis blistering. It is apparent (and prolific) throughout the boat building and RV manufacturing industries. I found this write-up a very good "primer" for non chemists, explaining the issue in layman's terms:

The Real Story of Osmosis Blistering
Treatment, Cure and Prevention:

Article by: Steve Smith, www.smithandcompany.org Vox 1-510-237-6842 fax 1-510-232-9921 here-->

*a few notes to the readers: GRP (glass-reinforced polyester) is also known as FRP (fiberglass-reinforced polyester). These terms are interchangeable acronyms

Once you've read through this (and, there are MANY other process research papers written on the topic of osmotic blistering by engineers {including Crane Composites articles: the company that makes FRP panels for the RV industry}, but far more in-depth, requiring an advanced degree in polymer chemistry to decipher), then we can discuss the possible causes as they relate to the RV composite panels fabrication (fabrication in any manufacturing facility) in great detail.

As I write previous: this issue is most likely related to climatic/temporal/situational/environmental issues at the manufacturing level, and/or inconsistencies in glue batch. Translating: the issue will not likely manifest in every unit "coming off the line", however, will affect some unknown x statistic (so far: I've personally heard of 14 units affected in personal correspondence, out of roughly 38 unit owners we know; this in itself is not a good statistical indicator of ratio (the manufacturer has perhaps close to a thousand units out in the market since 2004).

Anyhow: the best way to forensically analyze any issue at the manufacturing level, is to analyze the data (statistical line data) from the PLCs and sensors in the lamination process (ie glue temperatures, RH in lamination room, surface temperatures of the items being laminated just before lamination, vacuum lamination measurements over the press time, and many other data) IF the data had been collected.

Again: this is a situation that many composite laminators would be concerned about, not just one manufacturer! I'm SURE that Crane Composites engineers would relish the opportunity to investigate any manufacturers' process (under a non-disclosure agreement), to determine weaknesses in their product, and in the lamination process itself.

Cheers,
Silver-

[Geewizard]

I've had my Outfitter Apex 8 since 2004 and have always stored it outside. The temps ranged from +90F to -45F. Not one blister.
I'd say that Silversand's theory doesn't hold ice, er, water. 🙂

[silversand]

Hi Travelinglane!

I did some research, and it looks like for these mini blisters to occur, there has to be tiny drops of water in back of the FRP wall laminate (fiberglass cladding/glue/XPS block foam). Even though the FRP has no lauan/wood backing, the water migrates right through the VERY porous FRP, and gets trapped under the top coat gel-coating (the shiny exterior surface). If you store the camper outside over winter, the extreme cold will literally freeze these moisture pockets trapped under the gel-coat, and they will expand (ice always wants to expand) and literally "explode" out the direction of least resistance: the thin gel-coating. Pow. Small craters in the siding. Thank goodness we have only 2-- so far. This is the 1st time we have ever stored our camper outside during winter (in sub-zero temperatures).

I extrapolate that the glue used by the manufacturer has moisture in it (depending on situation, some days more moisture, some days less) OR, the FRP glass cladding OR XPS block foam has condensaton on the glue-side durng manufacture. My suggestion to anyone using glues in a vacuum bonding laminate/composite situation would be to heat and desiccate the glue in a special kettle, and apply it in an absolutely dry positive pressure environment, using automated spray application machinery (these can cost hundreds of thousands$$$ and up to a million$$$ or more) AND, pass the rolls of FRP through a drier and cleaning process, along with the aluminum welded frame AND XPS block foam sheets (all in a dry, positive pressure clean lamination room-- or, farm this process out to someone with the huge and expensive equipment to do this), then place the wall components in a very well cared-for and regularly inspected vacuum press. This is the cost of producing a flawless laminated wall, using FRP, I'm afraid (I wouldn't touch any RV in the future that isn't laminate-component manufactured using this process and machinery).

S-

[apexadveture]

Thanks so much for the reply's,there was hard ball sized bubbles the day I picked it up,coming from cal.,I did not want to go home empty handed,I took it back three months later left it for thee days,it was pretty obvious they couldn't handle the problem,it was no better than when I left it.
I will probably look to sell it and take my lumps,note to self,if it doesn't feel right don't do it.
Thanks again

[travelinglane]

I also had issues with my Outfitter Apex 8 gel coat. Like Silversand, I had tiny round circles of gelcoat that just popped off. Unfortunately they were all over the camper. I also lived 2,000 miles from the company, so not able to take it back for repairs.
As this was one of a long string of issues I had with my perhaps "Friday built" camper, I gave up and sold it at a considerable loss.
I hope you have better luck with yours.

[okan-star]

sstan wrote:

apexadveture wrote:
I need some advice,I have a outfitter apex 8 just under 2 years old,the sides of the camper has bubbles,looks like the mumps.
Manufacturer can't seem to fix the problem and it is getting worse,shall I seek legal advice? any body else have this problem?

Pullin my hair out

Dave

Dave,

I have a 2009 Apex that had a similar problem. Mine was happening above the inside curve of the side where the overcab section begins. This is a picture of it before the repair.


Outfitter was able to remove the trim molding and inject more adhesive. It's not perfect but after 2 years it's not getting any worse.

Silver is correct about the construction method they use. Unlike most other Filon applications theirs is not done over luan or some other type of organic backing. The Filon Outfitter use is quite a bit thicker than what is used by most TC manufacturers. This and the absence of water absorption behind the siding is one reason why I chose Outfitter.

Have you talked to Outfitter about the repair attempt? They may be able to help.

Good Luck.

Steve

I had a new 04 Apex 9.5 that was doing the same thing as this picture along with 3 other small round delams , Mine was built on a " Friday " I guess because It had a long list of problems from day one. the most serious were the small over hang by the cabover window , the lower box was coming loose , I managed a fix on this , and the lower basement floor one day was hanging down 2" on one side , no water intrusion, just delaminated , poor construction not Outfitter typical, Bob fixed that
I wasent to impressed by their vacume press that had a shop vac connected to it
I lost all confidence in that camper and sold it in 07 while it was still looking decent , lost thousands
Not a typical Outfitter experience , but there out there

[sstan]

apexadveture wrote:
I need some advice,I have a outfitter apex 8 just under 2 years old,the sides of the camper has bubbles,looks like the mumps.
Manufacturer can't seem to fix the problem and it is getting worse,shall I seek legal advice? any body else have this problem?

Pullin my hair out

Dave

Dave,

I have a 2009 Apex that had a similar problem. Mine was happening above the inside curve of the side where the overcab section begins. This is a picture of it before the repair.


Outfitter was able to remove the trim molding and inject more adhesive. It's not perfect but after 2 years it's not getting any worse.

Silver is correct about the construction method they use. Unlike most other Filon applications theirs is not done over luan or some other type of organic backing. The Filon Outfitter use is quite a bit thicker than what is used by most TC manufacturers. This and the absence of water absorption behind the siding is one reason why I chose Outfitter.

Have you talked to Outfitter about the repair attempt? They may be able to help.

Good Luck.

Steve

[silversand]

Outfitter Caribou 8 owner here (9 year old unit).

We (thank goodness) have not had any delamination anywhere on our unit. This 2013/2014 winter was the 1st winter our Caribou had been stored outside in the elements (the coldest and longest winter in our region in nearly 70 years).

The only item of note post-winter is: 2 small "blisters" about 4mm in diameter "popped" the gelcoat off in perfect circular pattern (very easy to remedy).

My understanding of the side-wall lamination process that Outfitter uses (and I saw camper shell walls being prepared and laminated while we spent the day at Outfitter picking up our camper) is thus:

-the block XPS foam is fitted into the aluminum frame, a layer of water-insoluble glue is applied to the aluminum/block foam-filled structure, and both the FRP sheeting and inside texture board are applied over the wall section, then vacuum-bonded under pressure.

The only way I can envision a repair to a section/sections of FRP that have come unglued, is to peel off the entire FRP siding, and re-apply new FRP. The problem with this are:

a) if you peel the FRP off the side of the Apex, you will also tear off some unknown quantity of XPS foam (!) in the process, rendering the entire wall section unusable; if you manage to peel the old de-laminated FRP off without damaging the XPS block foam it is glued to (highly unlikely), how will you re-laminate the 14 foot long camper wall again? You can't place the entire camper on its side, into the vacuum bonding machine. Thus, you will not (theoretically) be bonding every square inch of the FRP if you hand-hang the FRP (back to de-lamination once again).

The only way I think that it may be possible to repair such an issue is: injecting the same glue that Outfitter is using into each cavity with a relief air pressure pin-hole, until each and every de-laminated cavity is filled (any manufacturing engineers out there that can see potential problems with this method?). However, you will still "see" the topographic relief hills and valleys with this method (ie. this approach may not be aesthetically sufficient for an owner, however, it may bring the "air pockets" closer to ~~90%+ void filled).

If this situation happened after warranty, you may want to file an insurance claim. Or, gamble on further delamination not occurring (certainly, water infiltration into these voids will probably not exacerbate this situation, because all the materials are inorganic (ie. there is no wood/wood fiber backing on any Outfitter applied FRP paneling {at least, during our camper manufacture in May 2005}, and, the glue used by Outfitter will not be affected by water or water vapor {at least the adhesive used for our camper run, in 2005}).

One issue I am having (after 9 years with the Caribou) is that water coming into the rear-wall battery compartment found its way under the steel battery box insert (from the crappy hatch door), and rotted a very small area of under-wing marine plywood (about 1/4 of a square foot), which I cut out last Fall (unbelievably tough cut to do, I'll tell ya!). I then put a temp patch over the cut-out to protect from winter snows. Now, I need to order, cut out, and "sister" 8-foot long pieces of marine plywood (or, Coosa engineered fiber-board) under each wing (I will do both sides). If I use marine plywood, I will coat all edges and surfaces with marine varnish (7 coats) before gluing, screwing and caulking these 8-foot long panels over the existing plywood under there (a 5 day job, when our climate dries out enough to do this). I will then back-caulk the battery steel box insert frame (I've already done this with the propane tank steel insert box, 2 years ago), and remove the battery box battery tie-down strap nylon stays, and cut out 2 inch by 3 inch rubber gaskets for the 2 stays, and screw them into the rubber (gasketed).

Anyhow, let us know how you proceed!

Silver-

On edit: I re-read your post, and apparently it is getting worse. I would guess: an off-grade batch of glue, or, a contaminated wall structure surface before vacuum bonding

[joerg68]

Hi there,

another Apex 8 owner here. I, too, have some delam problems that were present when the camper was delivered. The manufacturer was willing to help, but with me being halfway across the planet (Germany vs. Colorado), that is not a simple matter. Local shops will not touch that camper, so I am on my own. But I knew that when I ordered, so I am in a somewhat different situation.

If it is any consolation for you: my camper has been stored outside, and the delam has not worsened since day 1. It doesn't look nice, but there is no functional issue. For me, at least. There were other issues, but that is a long story and I will not hijack the thread.

Do you have pictures or a better description of your delamination issues? Have you taken it to the manufacturer already and their repair was no good?

Here are some pics of ours when we picked it up at the port in Hamburg:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/104581754261901190566/albums/5649697271345346881
You can see dents in the cabover front, but the delam doesn't really show. The main problem zone is on the drivers side, lower right edge of the window.

BTW, my camper was built in early summer 2011.

Best regards,
Joerg

[kerry4951]

The manufacturer built it so they should be able to repair it. The question is will it be on your dime or theirs, Since most only provide a one year warranty, you might not have any recourse but to pay for the repair, assuming you can get them to do it. Its sad when you see issues like this in one and two year old TCs.

[Ol__Gold]

Well I can't speak for your situation, but I had a similar with my AF all within its first year. I noticed a spot by the oven vent about the size of a ball of an ink pen. I kept my eye on it and in about a year it grew to the size of a grapefruit. The dealer I purchased from took very good care of me and contacted the manufacturer with photos and a trained discription of what the situation was. The manufacturer let me use my rig the rest of the summer since that is why I purchased it. Over the winter they took it in and did a full wall replacement all under warranty. I couldn't be happier with the service that I received from both the dealer and the manufacturer. While it was there being worked on the manufacurer contacted me several times keeping me up to date with its progress. I learned a very important lesson with all of this. That is that everybody has a failure now and then. It's how they deal with the failure that makes the difference.

I did mine all under the manufacturers warranty prior to it expiring. Today the unit is another year plus older. If I notice a failure now I think it would be on me or my extended warranty / insurance company. I wish you my best and hope you find a solution to this situation.
Dan Bamrick