Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[carl2591]

that is great.. sounds like the making of a commercial.. like the one toyota did when the new 5.7L tundra come out was was shown pulling a space shuttle with no apparent help.. this was only possible on smooth level paved surface but the truck did the job..

Now how long or far can this happen. the trip was 1/4 mile but it could have gone for a couple miles more of less.. but that is still impressive for a gasser..

For me, currently ford f-250 '03 7.3L the difference between gas and diesel cost at some .70 to .90 cents is a non starter for me to stay with diesel when we go to change out in 3 yrs. So need to keep up the prices to see how it goes.

From what I can figure when diesel is .25 to .30 cent higher price the difference its mostly a wash between the two. Above that and it starts to get more toward the gasser vs diesel in cost.

SO we will have to see what shakes out in the next couple years to know where to say or go.. diesel or gas.. that is the question??

Copperhead wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Larry has a HEAVY combo and does require a Diesel truck!!!

Any heavier that the following?

I live rural and there is 2 miles of hilly gravel / dirt road from my house to the nearest hard top road. We had that hard cold snap and snow last week, then everything warmed up to the high 40's over the weekend, turning the gravel road into a soupy, muddy mess.

I had my semi tractor at home to do some work on it. But I needed to get a load of Kawasaki Mules to Chicago by Monday Morn. Trailer was in town, but had to get the semi tractor to town to get it. Barely got out of the drive and the 11,000 lb steer axle just cut trenches in the road and bogged the whole truck down. Couldn't make any progress even with both lockers engaged on the two drive axles.

Had the wife bring out 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0L gasser out and hook up. Hooked up a heavy duty tow strap to a clevis hitch in the receiver and then to the tow bar on the semi tractor. My wife then drove the 2500 and pulled the semi truck with me in it over 7 short but steep very muddy hills to the highway.

21,000 lb of semi tractor, pulled thru the mud, over 7 hills and the pickup barely broke a sweat. Running on $1.12 a gallon E85 fuel. The poor little 6.0L 360 hp / 380 lb torque V8. While the pickup did a great job, the wife was the bright light. She had never done anything like that before and was almost a nervous wreck at the end of it. But she did a great job, as good or better than anyone else I had seen try this before. A true towing champion!

So, it is a tough sell to convince me that at least within the capability of the gasser pickup, that a diesel and all the associated issues with diesel is required. Might be nicer and offer some bragging rights to friends and massage an ego, but not necessarily "required". "required" is a much overused term today.

[mountainkowboy]

gsxr1300 wrote:
Cant wait to see what the 2020 7.3 ford gaser does!

Could be a game changer....wait till it's offered in the Moho chassis.

[gsxr1300]

Cant wait to see what the 2020 7.3 ford gaser does!

[larry_barnhart]

I guess the real deal is to have a fifth with a nice gas engine to help with the towing or maybe an electric motor hooked to the axles with a belt drive.

Of course this is a joke.

chevman

[Cummins12V98]

I guarantee my wife's 99 Tahoe with a 350 in 4wd would do the same. BUT how long would it do it before there is a failure???

Nice story tho.

[Copperhead]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Larry has a HEAVY combo and does require a Diesel truck!!!

Any heavier that the following?

I live rural and there is 2 miles of hilly gravel / dirt road from my house to the nearest hard top road. We had that hard cold snap and snow last week, then everything warmed up to the high 40's over the weekend, turning the gravel road into a soupy, muddy mess.

I had my semi tractor at home to do some work on it. But I needed to get a load of Kawasaki Mules to Chicago by Monday Morn. Trailer was in town, but had to get the semi tractor to town to get it. Barely got out of the drive and the 11,000 lb steer axle just cut trenches in the road and bogged the whole truck down. Couldn't make any progress even with both lockers engaged on the two drive axles.

Had the wife bring out 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0L gasser out and hook up. Hooked up a heavy duty tow strap to a clevis hitch in the receiver and then to the tow bar on the semi tractor. My wife then drove the 2500 and pulled the semi truck with me in it over 7 short but steep very muddy hills to the highway.

21,000 lb of semi tractor, pulled thru the mud, over 7 hills and the pickup barely broke a sweat. Running on $1.12 a gallon E85 fuel. The poor little 6.0L 360 hp / 380 lb torque V8. While the pickup did a great job, the wife was the bright light. She had never done anything like that before and was almost a nervous wreck at the end of it. But she did a great job, as good or better than anyone else I had seen try this before. A true towing champion!

So, it is a tough sell to convince me that at least within the capability of the gasser pickup, that a diesel and all the associated issues with diesel is required. Might be nicer and offer some bragging rights to friends and massage an ego, but not necessarily "required". "required" is a much overused term today.

[Copperhead]

So many misapplication of those articles you posted along with misconceptions.

Soy beans are not involved in ethanol production. That knocked out a few of those article links you posted. Soy is used for bodiesel, as is peanut oil, canola oil, etc. I never argued that there weren't subsidies for wind energy, biodiesel, etc. Only ethanol. And that there are no more direct subsidies for ethanol production is fact.

The old argument about corn being diverted from food for fuel is a total red herring at best, and an outright lie at worse. Of the entire annual corn crop in the U.S. 20% goes for food.. Of the 80% that remains, 40% of that goes to ethanol production. And of that corn that goes into ethanol production, 17-18 lb of high protein feed supplement comes out the back end for every bushel of corn that goes in the front door. Along with polymers and plastics. Even the insulators used on the spark plugs in gasoline engines is made from byproducts of corn ethanol production.

And if having corn being diverted to ethanol production was a problem, then corn prices would be in the stratosphere. But in fact, corn prices (inflation adjusted) are cheaper than they were in 1996. There is an overabundance of corn. No one is getting short changed on their corn bread, corn flakes, or tortillas. If the corn price would have kept up with inflation, it would be trading for $6.48 a bushel. The closing price for corn 11/30/2018 was $3.66. In April 1996, corn was trading for $4.02. So this trading food for fuel argument is pure poppycock. Economics is not that hard of a subject to understand.

the only Ethanol "subsidy" is for blender fuel pumps. that is a retail thing. Ethanol producers nor farmers sell ethanol at the retail level. Even the article from thoughtco you linked to did not even mention a subsidy. It mentioned tax breaks. Tax breaks are not subsidies. Do you get a subsidy from the government when you claim mortgage interest deduction? Does a person get a subsidy when they claim medical expense as a deduction? Of course not. They just get hit for less tax taken from them. That is all that is going on with any tax advantages the ethanol folks might get. Only those who think that everything belongs to the people of the country would think that letting either individuals or entities keep more of what they earn is a subsidy. Socialism comrade.

While one can argue a little that the Renewable Fuels Standards is some form of subsidy, there is a myriad of things that we deal with daily that can be argued the same way. Government mandates a lot of stuff in our lives that we have to pay for. Most people don't really sit back and look at how much of their money is spent on things that are mandated by government. Ethanol barely scratches the surface. If one really looks closely, most folks spend more on taxes and fees that were established to pay for the Spanish American War and WW I that are still in place than they spend on some "forced" purchasing of ethanol.

Even the article from the taxpayers for common sense, buried deep in the article, subsidies are for blender pumps and such. Again, that is not ethanol producers or farmers that get that. It is retailers who sell fuels. And in some instances it is a good thing. It allows consumers a wide selection of fuels at the same pump and they can choose what they want to buy. I frequent blender pumps exclusively. I put E85 in my vehicle, I buy ethanol free gas for my OPE, lawnmowers, and motorcycle. I get to pick and choose what I want. How is a subsidy for blender pumps such a terrible thing for the consumer?

And indeed, there is taxpayer money spent on crop insurance type of stuff. But that equates to all crops. Including the lettuce in your salad to the green beans on your plate. Crop insurance keeps the entire agriculture system stable to the benefit of all of us. A major drought or similar could wipe out many farmers of all sorts of crops. Then the food supply is negatively affected for years and years. And you think you pay higher prices now? If 20% of America's farmers were to go under in a bad year, you would be paying 5 times or more just for a loaf of bread. And the restaurant industry would probably take a major hit and put thousands of people out of work, because no one could afford the food prices and quit eating out. Livestock and poultry producers could not afford to feed their critters and be forced to sell out. Because of the crop insurance program, the agriculture sector remans relatively stable and we in America spend the lowest percentage of our income on food than anywhere else in the world.

[Bedlam]

The 2012 NPR article does not go into RIN and other programs that are still subsidizing Ethanol - There is not just one subsidy funding this fuel, but many. As some expire, others have taken their place.

Does that 2002 study of corn based ethanol still apply today? The soybean farmers have vested interest in their crop, but claim much less corn efficiency than what that study produced.

The report from 10 years ago about water usage may not be valid today considering the changing weather patterns.

My point about those links is that you cannot cherry-pick 16 or 10 or 8 years back to reflect what is happening now. Here are some links produced this year:

https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/what-new-us-subsidies-mean-for-soybean-farmers

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/government/donald-trump-tariffs-iowa-soybean-farmers-federal...

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/15243/eia-subsidies-for-renewables-down-as-tax-credits-dimin...

https://fee.org/articles/ethanol-is-a-never-ending-gravy-train-for-corn-farmers-and-ethanol-producer...

https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/05/13/addressing-misconceptions-from-senator-grassleys-eth...

https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural-resources/federal-subsidies-corn-ethanol-corn-based-biofuels...

[Cummins12V98]

Larry has a HEAVY combo and does require a Diesel truck!!!

[Copperhead]

larry barnhart wrote:
If I was not going to tow I would have a gas engine so our reasons for having a diesel is the right choice.

chevman

Well, it depends on what, where, etc one is towing. If one has a 5000 lb single axle TT, a gasser would work fine, even at high altitudes. And would be far cheaper to purchase and operate. Only when talking about some major towing does diesel really have the edge.

Not everyone pulls around a 14K 5th wheel. That vast majority of TT's being pulled around are under 7000 lb. My 3/4 ton gasser wouldn't even break a sweat pulling stuff like that around.

If I were regularly towing, say as one of the transport situations yanking trailers from the factory to dealers, then I would jump on a diesel in a heartbeat. That is where it comes into its own. For the average weekender and such, it may or may not be the best choice.

The beauty is, we don't all have to use the same thing to get the job done that we need done. All one really needs to do is crunch the numbers and see what works best for their situation.

[Copperhead]

Bedlam wrote:
If ethanol was not so subsided by government programs, you would not see that price. It takes more energy to create ethanol than it produces and just keeps the corn and soybean farms in the black with the government kick backs.

Well that sounds cool, but ethanol subsidies were eliminated at the end of 2011. It was in all the papers. Even the Socialist news organization, National Public Radio, reported it.

https://www.npr.org/2012/01/03/144605485/congress-ends-era-of-ethanol-subsidies

As for taking more energy that Ethanol provides. Another false idea. A major study was done regarding this. For every BTU of energy to produce Ethanol, there is a net of 1.34 BTU of energy on the back end. In terms of liquid fuel alone, for every BTU of liquid fuel used to make ethanol, there is a net of 6.34 BTU of energy from ethanol. This 16 page report breaks it all down.

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf

Even regarding water... it takes almost as much water to produce a gallon of refined fuel as it does to make ethanol. And considerably less water than it takes to make many things we use in our daily lives.....

https://extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm

And even if it was subsidized to make, which it isn't, ethanol is still traded on the commodities exchanges just like gas, diesel, propane, etc and it is what the market says the price is that sets the price. The ethanol producers, corn growers, etc have nothing to do with it.


A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[larry_barnhart]

If I was not going to tow I would have a gas engine so our reasons for having a diesel is the right choice.

chevman

[Cummins12V98]

Bedlam wrote:
If ethanol was not so subsided by government programs, you would not see that price. It takes more energy to create ethanol than it produces and just keeps the corn and soybean farms in the black with the government kick backs.

So true!!!

[Bedlam]

If ethanol was not so subsided by government programs, you would not see that price. It takes more energy to create ethanol than it produces and just keeps the corn and soybean farms in the black with the government kick backs.

[Copperhead]

I was reminded yesterday why I don't have a diesel pickup. I filled up my 3/4 ton Chevy 6.0 gasser with E85 for $1.34 a gallon. This is why my pickup has been on E85 for well over a year now. The price spread makes is significantly more cost effective, even with the lower mpg.

And every day I have to deal with diesel in my commercial stuff, and paying for the 21,000 gallons of diesel I go thru in a year solidifies that I am glad I have a gasser pickup.