Give them somewhat of a break

[samhain7]

I am posting this here because it is one of the few forums I look at.

I see a lot of critical reviews of people and their choice of trailer or TV and the research they do. I only ask that we give them a break.
I did a little experiment and went to two different Dodge dealerships and spoke with a multitude of people. Neither of which gave me the correct information. I positioned myself as a CURRENT truck owner who was curious about it's capabilities, so no one can say they were just trying to make a sale. Either way of all the people I spoke to, I got 90% incorrect information. The last guy even told me that tongue weight does not decrease from the payload. I saw calculators, papers, pamphlets...everything...they all really went out of their way to help, just didn't get much right. I spurned a lot of conversations in offices between sales guys, managers and service dept while I was there. Still, not a lot of correct information.
Even on this forum, there was a recent conversation on the ratings which caused confusion.
So, when people say research things, it isn't always that easy. Some people expect "experts" to be able to give them accurate information.
If I were a consumer, I believe that I did everything right by going to two different dealers, going to the trailer dealer, looking on websites..etc. It still doesn't mean that you will get a proper hook up. Even I was mis-lead somewhat and will be towing a bit over weight this summer, until next year when I can afford a new truck (I ain't made of money).
So for now, I drive careful, kept the trips short this year and will be just fine.
So I guess the point is, we should give those people a bit of a break, after all, we are here to "help" each other right?

[joshuajim]

Lantley wrote:

joshuajim wrote:
It's not just the salesman, but the manufacturers too. I have a F150 Eco with both Max tow and HD payload. The manufacturer sez I can tow up to 11,300 lbs. ...but the receiver is only rated for 1,130 lbs. Thats 10% of the trailer weight. Ten percent tongue weight is on the edge of disaster!

It's almost impossible to find a trailer that has 10% tongue weight from the factory. The trailer manufacturers know that 10% is marginal and usually design around 13%.

The max I feel that I can safely tow with 1,100 lbs on the ball is about 8,000 lbs.

Blame the tow vehicle manufacturer as much as the salesman. In many cases, he's only regurgitating what the manufacturer publishes.

You must understand RV trailers are different from boats and other types of trailers. THey have large frontal and side areas. If you read closely the manufactures typically address the large frontal areaa of RVs.
10-15% is TW is based on RV trailers boats and other trailers do not have this issue. The ratings are designed for all trailers not just RVs. You can see why all parameters must be examined. RV trailers have heavy TW's boats have less. The physics involved require more than one parameter (max tow rating) to determine tow ability of a trailer.

...and when the manufacturer publishes their specs, they do not know which type of trailer I will be towing, so they must assume the worst case which is RV. Ten percent TW on an RV in my opinion is marginal and not likely to happen in the real world.

I understand that RV's are different, thats why I don't tow over 8,000 lbs even though Ford sez I can tow 11,300.

[atreis]

jaycocreek wrote:
My feeling is if you haven't done it, don't comment on it or guess about it and lump all trailers/truck ratings into one category with phony percentages that are generic at best.

Yes the new guys do need a break from the grumpy no-it-alls!

x2.

Did my research, and tow according to manufacturer's recommendations for the TV. Been towing this trailer with this TV since late 2008 (over 30K miles), have towed others before with both heavier and lighter vehicles, and have to say this minivan does quite a nice job towing this trailer. YMMV.

[sacmarata]

My father bought a used 3/4, long wheel base, diesel truck with a $2,000+ anti sway system (can't remember brand) to tow his 6,500lb TT. No brainer right? Surely he has twice the TV and equipment needed to tow this light weight TT?
After he got the truck home and was going over it he decided he wanted to get bigger tires to improve his unloaded mpg and after inspecting the tires that came on the truck he noticed they were load range C!

LOAD RANGE C ON A 3/4 TON DIESEL? The truck by itself likely exceeded the tire load rating and at 6 ply with weak sidewall strength it was an accident waiting to happen.

A lot of emphasis gets put on tongue weight and sway control for very gopod reason, but don't overlook those tires.

[samhain7]

kennyd63 wrote:
I couldn't said it better my self. Thank you for the post.:)

Welcome!

[Lantley]

joshuajim wrote:
It's not just the salesman, but the manufacturers too. I have a F150 Eco with both Max tow and HD payload. The manufacturer sez I can tow up to 11,300 lbs. ...but the receiver is only rated for 1,130 lbs. Thats 10% of the trailer weight. Ten percent tongue weight is on the edge of disaster!

It's almost impossible to find a trailer that has 10% tongue weight from the factory. The trailer manufacturers know that 10% is marginal and usually design around 13%.

The max I feel that I can safely tow with 1,100 lbs on the ball is about 8,000 lbs.

Blame the tow vehicle manufacturer as much as the salesman. In many cases, he's only regurgitating what the manufacturer publishes.

You must understand RV trailers are different from boats and other types of trailers. THey have large frontal and side areas. If you read closely the manufactures typically address the large frontal areaa of RVs.
10-15% is TW is based on RV trailers boats and other trailers do not have this issue. The ratings are designed for all trailers not just RVs. You can see why all parameters must be examined. RV trailers have heavy TW's boats have less. The physics involved require more than one parameter (max tow rating) to determine tow ability of a trailer.

[kennyd63]

samhain7 wrote:
I am posting this here because it is one of the few forums I look at.

I see a lot of critical reviews of people and their choice of trailer or TV and the research they do. I only ask that we give them a break.
I did a little experiment and went to two different Dodge dealerships and spoke with a multitude of people. Neither of which gave me the correct information. I positioned myself as a CURRENT truck owner who was curious about it's capabilities, so no one can say they were just trying to make a sale. Either way of all the people I spoke to, I got 90% incorrect information. The last guy even told me that tongue weight does not decrease from the payload. I saw calculators, papers, pamphlets...everything...they all really went out of their way to help, just didn't get much right. I spurned a lot of conversations in offices between sales guys, managers and service dept while I was there. Still, not a lot of correct information.
Even on this forum, there was a recent conversation on the ratings which caused confusion.
So, when people say research things, it isn't always that easy. Some people expect "experts" to be able to give them accurate information.
If I were a consumer, I believe that I did everything right by going to two different dealers, going to the trailer dealer, looking on websites..etc. It still doesn't mean that you will get a proper hook up. Even I was mis-lead somewhat and will be towing a bit over weight this summer, until next year when I can afford a new truck (I ain't made of money).
So for now, I drive careful, kept the trips short this year and will be just fine.
So I guess the point is, we should give those people a bit of a break, after all, we are here to "help" each other right?

I couldn't said it better my self. Thank you for the post.:)

[jaycocreek]

PAThwacker wrote:
I consider it commom sense, been hearing about grocery getter half tons for 30 years, and seen many flipped 1/2 trucks/suvs/camper/yardsales.

That's funny, the only flipped truck/trailers I've seen and recently were 8 luggers.



Now, show me a 1/2 ton/trailer flipped.

[joshuajim]

It's not just the salesman, but the manufacturers too. I have a F150 Eco with both Max tow and HD payload. The manufacturer sez I can tow up to 11,300 lbs. ...but the receiver is only rated for 1,130 lbs. Thats 10% of the trailer weight. Ten percent tongue weight is on the edge of disaster!

It's almost impossible to find a trailer that has 10% tongue weight from the factory. The trailer manufacturers know that 10% is marginal and usually design around 13%.

The max I feel that I can safely tow with 1,100 lbs on the ball is about 8,000 lbs.

Blame the tow vehicle manufacturer as much as the salesman. In many cases, he's only regurgitating what the manufacturer publishes.

[jerem0621]

PAThwacker wrote:
I consider it commom sense, been hearing about grocery getter half tons for 30 years, and seen many flipped 1/2 trucks/suvs/camper/yardsales.

True, but I have seen many HD trucks flipped as well.

[jerem0621]

rockhillmanor wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
....Loading the trailer correctly, adjusting the hitch correctly, driving sensibly are much more important factors than the sticker.....

As a brand new newbie back in the day, I bought my first TT.
I stayed WAY WAY under the suggested tow vehicle towing/tongue weight, found the shortest TT I could find. And bought all the new fangled anti-sway/distribution equipment.

You'd think I would be driving the most safe setup right?


2 words.......wheel base

I have told this story several times. Bought brand new TT and hooked it up to my perfectly equipped per manuf specs, too short wheel base TV. Wheel base is never addressed in manuf relating to tow specs.

Took one trip did not complete it, turned around and dropped the TT off at 2:00 am back at the dealers lot and sold it.......retired my too short wheel based TV to grocery shopping.

Yep, I worked through that too. I pulled with an Expedition with my 31 ft TT and it was a handful. However my F150 handled great. The wheelbase played a factor for sure.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[PAThwacker]

I consider it commom sense, been hearing about grocery getter half tons for 30 years, and seen many flipped 1/2 trucks/suvs/camper/yardsales.

[rockhillmanor]

jerem0621 wrote:
....Loading the trailer correctly, adjusting the hitch correctly, driving sensibly are much more important factors than the sticker.....

As a brand new newbie back in the day, I bought my first TT.
I stayed WAY WAY under the suggested tow vehicle towing/tongue weight, found the shortest TT I could find. And bought all the new fangled anti-sway/distribution equipment.

You'd think I would be driving the most safe setup right?


2 words.......wheel base

I have told this story several times. Bought brand new TT and hooked it up to my perfectly equipped per manuf specs, too short wheel base TV. Wheel base is never addressed in manuf relating to tow specs.

Took one trip did not complete it, turned around and dropped the TT off at 2:00 am back at the dealers lot and sold it.......retired my too short wheel based TV to grocery shopping.

[jerem0621]

I personally have a problem with unsafe towing... Absolutely I do... However, people think that the payload sticker is the all and all on this issue...it is NOT the key to safe towing. That little sticker causes us to delve into semantics and starts a lot of if thens and accusatory tones going back and forth. Is an overloaded half ton unsafe all the time? I say no... Is an under capacity dually safe all the time? Again I say no.

So, let's take the EcoDiesel and the infamous 800 lbs of payload for an example. Is the truck safe at 799 lbs of payload? Based on previous responses... Yes.. Because it's just a number right?

What if we take that load up to a whopping 801 lbs... Is the truck unsafe? Maybe..maybe not.

What if the "in the ratings 799 lbs was hung off the ball as tongue weight and the headlights of the ram were pointing in the air. The truck is under that mystical payload sticker...right? Is the truck safe? I think not!!!!

In my experience, weights are not the all in all to safe towing and motoring. There are so many more factors to safe towing... The number one being the operator. Does he/she know how to balance a trailer properly, check tire pressure, properly adjust the WD hitch? Does the operator drive sensibly? Do they have the trailer brakes adjusted properly? How about the brake controller? What about the 7-way connections... Are they clean, are the contacts good.

Loading the trailer correctly, adjusting the hitch correctly, driving sensibly are much more important factors than the sticker.

Speaking of the payload sticker... Will someone please explain why manufacturer A will rate the payload sticker nearly at the sum of the axle ratings while manufacturer B will allow the payload sticker to be nearly or more than 1000 lbs less than the sum of the axle ratings? There is NO universal mechanism that I am aware of for OEM's to come up with the payload sticker... Just that it has to be there (I could be very wrong)

Speaking of truck modifications... Does adding LT tires to a half ton and adding air bags or Timbrens change the little payload sticker? Nope it doesn't... The font and print were put there at the factory... Does this change the capability of the truck? YES IT DOES. It's up to the operator to determine their ability to operate a vehicle safely.

Owning a half ton does not make one unsafe or safe...neither does owning a HD truck automagically make one an expert and a safe tower.

The driver/operator is the #1 key to safe towing. They can either be safe or unsafe.

I haven't even talked about aerodynamics... Maybe in another thread.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[rockhillmanor]

beemerphile1 wrote:

samhain7 wrote:
...I was mis-lead somewhat and

will be towing a bit over weight this summer

, until next year when I can afford a new truck...So for now, I drive careful,

kept the trips short this year and will be just fine

....

So, are you saying it is only dangerous if you are more than X miles from home? But you are not dangerous if you are less than X miles from home? I think your logic is faulty....

x2
This one scares me the most too. And often used as an excuse for having an 'unsafe' towing set up.

I don't want an overweight too long TT attached to a too small incapable tow vehicle around me on the road ANYWHERE. On the interstate open road or around where I live. Doing 30 or 55 mph.

It's the same o same o. Yup your tow vehicle can dead weight pull just about anything on flat ground in a straight line. But not set up properly it can not tow 1 foot SAFELY.

Too long, too heavy for the tow vehicle and one slight swing of that trailer and you are not only putting you family in danger but 'everyone' else along side you or even oncoming when it starts fishtailing and flips your too small, too short of a wheel base truck over. 😞

I full time and when I am on the road not one day goes by that I don't see a TT with the wrong TV fishtailing all over The tail wagging the dog. Is it really worth the safety of your family to state "I" pull that setup, so sure, you can too?

[westend]

I'm gonna' give the guy a break, he's trying to contribute. As other's have said, we really can't trust sales people to be 100% accurate and it's a good cautionary note.
I have too many miles under me to relate 100% to the perceived dilemma of the newb trailer tower, I guess.