Give them somewhat of a break

[samhain7]

I am posting this here because it is one of the few forums I look at.

I see a lot of critical reviews of people and their choice of trailer or TV and the research they do. I only ask that we give them a break.
I did a little experiment and went to two different Dodge dealerships and spoke with a multitude of people. Neither of which gave me the correct information. I positioned myself as a CURRENT truck owner who was curious about it's capabilities, so no one can say they were just trying to make a sale. Either way of all the people I spoke to, I got 90% incorrect information. The last guy even told me that tongue weight does not decrease from the payload. I saw calculators, papers, pamphlets...everything...they all really went out of their way to help, just didn't get much right. I spurned a lot of conversations in offices between sales guys, managers and service dept while I was there. Still, not a lot of correct information.
Even on this forum, there was a recent conversation on the ratings which caused confusion.
So, when people say research things, it isn't always that easy. Some people expect "experts" to be able to give them accurate information.
If I were a consumer, I believe that I did everything right by going to two different dealers, going to the trailer dealer, looking on websites..etc. It still doesn't mean that you will get a proper hook up. Even I was mis-lead somewhat and will be towing a bit over weight this summer, until next year when I can afford a new truck (I ain't made of money).
So for now, I drive careful, kept the trips short this year and will be just fine.
So I guess the point is, we should give those people a bit of a break, after all, we are here to "help" each other right?

[atreis]

rockhillmanor wrote:

You will rarely see accidents with flipped over livestock combos. Compared to daily events of RV's flipping over all across the country.

I strongly suspect this has more to do with center of gravity than anything else. The animals stand, putting all of their weight on the floor. The walls are open for ventilation, and usually made out of lightweight materials and they generally have nothing mounted on the roof. Travel trailers have heavier sidewalls and roofs (insulation, windows, cabinets mounted up hight) and heavy stuff mounted on the roof (AC units). Comparing these is really apples and oranges.

[rockhillmanor]

...and when the manufacturer publishes their specs, they do not know which type of trailer I will be towing, so they must assume the worst case which is RV. Ten percent TW on an RV in my opinion is marginal and not likely to happen in the real world.

I understand that RV's are different, thats why I don't tow over 8,000 lbs even though Ford sez I can tow 11,300.

I don't think the OEM's consider an RV the worst case scenario. the loads hardly shift and they are relatively easy to tow.

Horses, Cows, and other livestock I bet are worse case scenarios.

Here is the issue the OEM's are facings, they have MANY cross sections of people who want to tow things.

Some want to tow utility trailers, some car trailers, some livestock, some agriculture equipment, some boats, some RV's… etc etc etc

The OEM's have zero idea what you personally are going to do with the truck once it leaves their lot… but they have to put some rating on there.. then marketing gets involved.. etc etc etc.

So what does this all mean.. same thing I said in my other post… it comes down to the

OPERATOR, experience, and common sense more than anything else.

No rating can make up for common sense.

X2
RV's AND consider the new giant 5'ers the worst have huge 'high profile' issues They tower over the TV, and more often than not driven by first time RV'ers. 😞

Any wind, semi passing, change lanes a tad to fast and you better have the correct TV. Wind and semi's passing is a natural EVERYDAY event on the road so why take the chance?

In regards to the livestock comment:
I will take hauling my 4 horses in my 4 place slant road trailer with 'all four horses scrambling' ANY DAY over a high profile RV. Trust me it's much easier and safer to haul livestock trailers.!

I can pull my horse trailer thru high winds no problem. My TT, any type of excess winds and I was out of commission and off to the side waiting for them to die down. Henceforth why the highway department sends out 'high profile' warnings when the weather dictates its.

You will rarely see accidents with flipped over livestock combos. Compared to daily events of RV's flipping over all across the country.

[Tequila]

Weights & such are always a problem and so are salesmen. Try going over to the truck camper section and searching on this issue. It is even a bigger issue than with TT's since nearly everybody is overweight, some hugely so.

[jspence1]

I saw a Ford Explorer pulling a 30' TT with 3 slides two weeks ago, it must have been 8-9000lbs.

[samhain7]

I agree Dog. And those people are the one that should have their wrist slapped. Or wait. I think you can get sued for that now a days...

[Dog_Folks]

samhain7 wrote:
.......So some people try. It isn't as easy for a newbie as some think.

Absolutely.

But a large number of people make NO effort to learn, at all, and then complain AFTER the sale that someone else is at fault.

No sense of self responsibility, but I guess that is common today.

[jaycocreek]

jspence1 wrote:
Hi, my name is John and I drive an overloaded TV. I didn't start out with the intention of overloading, but here I sit over loaded 😞

2001 Ford Excursion
2010 Evergreen Ever Lite 31BHS

:B:B

[samhain7]

Let me paint another real life scenario. Joe decides he wants to buy a travel trailer.
He says, "I want to make sure I am safe". He checks the truck manufacturer's website and discovers he has 1700 lbs payload. Great!
He checks the trailer manufacturer's website. The trailer weighs 5500 lbs. Great!

However, he didn't know about the sticker on his truck. He has no where near 1700 lbs payload.
However, when the trailer is delivered, it weighs 6300lbs.

The point was, every person who get too much trailer, isn't automatically irresponsible...some are, of course....but not everyone.

But in my experiment, nobody at the one dealership (including the OWNER) knew about the payload sticker until I educated them.
So some people try. It isn't as easy for a newbie as some think.

[jspence1]

Hi, my name is John and I drive an overloaded TV. I didn't start out with the intention of overloading, but here I sit over loaded 😞

2001 Ford Excursion
2010 Evergreen Ever Lite 31BHS

[Dog_Folks]

In ANY sales situation, I only ask ONE thing: Do not LIE to me. If you don't know, or are unsure, fair enough. No one can know every detail.

Lie to me, your "break", and your sale, just left the building.

[noteven]

what jerem0621 said about "...marketing gets involved..."

I have a truck that has a GVWR set below it's component capabilities to meet a "non CDL market segment" in another country according to what Chrysler told me.

And then there is the data. Any customer, rv sales person, or tow vehicle sales person should be able to commit this info to memory - some examples:

Ford towing

Ford payload selector

RAM truck towing & payload step 1

GMC truck - step 1 - 3500 model only

It looks simple enough...

[westend]

LarryJM wrote:

BurbMan wrote:

Lantley wrote:
You raise a good point. However the info is there many are just reluctant to accept it. Letting someone know there combo is poorly matched is not intended to be critical but is meant to inform them.
There is a lot of misinformation as well but at some point along the line a newbie will encounter the real truth and become enlightened.
Sometimes the truth hurts,sometimes the info is too late and a mismatched sale has already taken place nevertheless I wouldn't be too critical of the messenger especially if the messenger is attempting to enlighten and newbie with valid towing facts and parameters.

Well said.

Too many find this forum after they are new TT owners, and after reading a few threads on weights, realize that they too may be overweight. Many come to that conclusion on their own and then post here looking for someone or anyone to tell them it's OK. Others post here asking about the "trailer of their dreams" and when 12 out of 12 posters tell them it's too much trailer for their truck, they complain about the "negative" tone here.

I was once a newbie like that too....I bought our first TT based on what the salesman told us and vigorously defended the merits of towing a 6500 lb TT behind a Ford Expedition. It took a whole season of towing before I realized that the guys here on the forum were right and that I was an idiot. Over the years I also came to realize the merits and benefits of the Hensley Arrow, real extendable tow mirrors, 6V batteries, quiet generators, LT tires, TPMS, and a host of other items.

I'm on my 16th season with an RV, and I would say that some of the new guys need to give us a break....

I couldn't agree more ... However it's that in grained characteristic that NO ONE wants to admit they are WRONG and that stubbornness goes off the chart when the $$$ has already been foolishly spent.

Larry

Nailed it!

[LarryJM]

BurbMan wrote:

Lantley wrote:
You raise a good point. However the info is there many are just reluctant to accept it. Letting someone know there combo is poorly matched is not intended to be critical but is meant to inform them.
There is a lot of misinformation as well but at some point along the line a newbie will encounter the real truth and become enlightened.
Sometimes the truth hurts,sometimes the info is too late and a mismatched sale has already taken place nevertheless I wouldn't be too critical of the messenger especially if the messenger is attempting to enlighten and newbie with valid towing facts and parameters.

Well said.

Too many find this forum after they are new TT owners, and after reading a few threads on weights, realize that they too may be overweight. Many come to that conclusion on their own and then post here looking for someone or anyone to tell them it's OK. Others post here asking about the "trailer of their dreams" and when 12 out of 12 posters tell them it's too much trailer for their truck, they complain about the "negative" tone here.

I was once a newbie like that too....I bought our first TT based on what the salesman told us and vigorously defended the merits of towing a 6500 lb TT behind a Ford Expedition. It took a whole season of towing before I realized that the guys here on the forum were right and that I was an idiot. Over the years I also came to realize the merits and benefits of the Hensley Arrow, real extendable tow mirrors, 6V batteries, quiet generators, LT tires, TPMS, and a host of other items.

I'm on my 16th season with an RV, and I would say that some of the new guys need to give us a break....

I couldn't agree more ... However it's that in grained characteristic that NO ONE wants to admit they are WRONG and that stubbornness goes off the chart when the $$$ has already been foolishly spent.

Larry

[Lantley]

In terms of Aerodynamics RV trailers present the biggest challenge. Overcoming the wind is a very big challenge. RV trailers can be heavy and large with more frontal area than any other type trailer.
Most other types are not as tall and wide as an RV trailer.
Nevertheless if you follow the ratings including frontal area info found in the OEM's fine print you will be fine.
In the end most mismatch problems stem from owners not using or understanding the towing parameters.
How many actually weigh their rigs in order to understand how balanced their combo is?
It is easy to blame the salesman however, since the coming of the internet info on towing parameters etc. is readily available. The end user has no one to blame but themselves if their combo is mismatched.
Common sense and experience goes a long way towards making a sound decision.

[jerem0621]

joshuajim wrote:

Lantley wrote:

joshuajim wrote:
It's not just the salesman, but the manufacturers too. I have a F150 Eco with both Max tow and HD payload. The manufacturer sez I can tow up to 11,300 lbs. ...but the receiver is only rated for 1,130 lbs. Thats 10% of the trailer weight. Ten percent tongue weight is on the edge of disaster!

It's almost impossible to find a trailer that has 10% tongue weight from the factory. The trailer manufacturers know that 10% is marginal and usually design around 13%.

The max I feel that I can safely tow with 1,100 lbs on the ball is about 8,000 lbs.

Blame the tow vehicle manufacturer as much as the salesman. In many cases, he's only regurgitating what the manufacturer publishes.

You must understand RV trailers are different from boats and other types of trailers. THey have large frontal and side areas. If you read closely the manufactures typically address the large frontal areaa of RVs.
10-15% is TW is based on RV trailers boats and other trailers do not have this issue. The ratings are designed for all trailers not just RVs. You can see why all parameters must be examined. RV trailers have heavy TW's boats have less. The physics involved require more than one parameter (max tow rating) to determine tow ability of a trailer.

...and when the manufacturer publishes their specs, they do not know which type of trailer I will be towing, so they must assume the worst case which is RV. Ten percent TW on an RV in my opinion is marginal and not likely to happen in the real world.

I understand that RV's are different, thats why I don't tow over 8,000 lbs even though Ford sez I can tow 11,300.

I don't think the OEM's consider an RV the worst case scenario. the loads hardly shift and they are relatively easy to tow. Horses, Cows, and other livestock I bet are worse case scenarios.

Here is the issue the OEM's are facings, they have MANY cross sections of people who want to tow things.

Some want to tow utility trailers, some car trailers, some livestock, some agriculture equipment, some boats, some RV's… etc etc etc

The OEM's have zero idea what you personally are going to do with the truck once it leaves their lot… but they have to put some rating on there.. then marketing gets involved.. etc etc etc.

So what does this all mean.. same thing I said in my other post… it comes down to the OPERATOR, experience, and common sense more than anything else. No rating can make up for common sense.