Heavy Duty Brakes?

[Passage0ftime]

I am prepping a "new to me" TV and looking for some pre-season advice. My tow vehicles have always been trucks I bought new, so was very aware of prior maintenance etc. My new TV is a 3500 Silverado (06) 8.1 with 6 speed Allison auto trans, and this will be my first season with it. I have not owned either a dually or any vehicle this large. I am concerned with the brakes, not because they don't stop me, but because I have not tried with a vehicle in tow. Vehicle is going it for full fluid changes, transmission flush and replacement filters this next week, and I will be having the brakes checked (which nearly always means, "buddy, you need a brake job")

Is there a reason to shop up some hard core aftermarket HD brakes, or are the OEM on a vehicle like this already maximum heavy duty? It has 4 wheel disc brakes. Fifth wheel is about 9K fully loaded.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

ScottG wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
I don't know what you mean by heavy duty?

All OEM brakes are programed into their ECM for the type of pad material they have. IOW's it's best to stay with OEM material.

I'm sorry but that is absolutely false. The computer has no idea what pads your using nor would it care. It only monitors the rotation of the rotors and adjusts accordingly.
So the computer working with better brakes is a non-issue.

Also, brake pads are made to a price point. That's why it's easy to find better brakes.
Finally, if you go to the dealer service counter and buy a set of pads, unless they are special ordered, you are getting service replacement and not exact OEM's.

I've replaced brakes long before they needed it just to get superior performance. Started doing that with my 3/4T Chevy with a TC. I could just about stand it on it's nose. Came in real handy when an accident happened right in front of me on the freeway.

There's absolutely no down side to have better brakes.

Sorry, but if you think that BMW is the only manufacture that pairs their pads to their ECM you are sorely mistaken.

Here is what one manufacture says about the subject: "Last but not least, there is one more reason why we recommend using genuine brake pads. All models come equipped as standard with VDC and other similar stability control systems. VDC and ABS help control the movement of the car, and have been designed to suit genuine brake pads. Using non-genuine brake pads can result in different friction coefficients and braking characteristics, and may prevent VDC or ABS from performing at their best level." (this is where the pairing of the ECM comes in)

Now, can the OP bolt a set of pads on his truck that out performs an OEM pad for lets say extreme heat? Sure! BUT it will be lacking in other fields such as cold braking or wear or many, many other fields.

Braking balance is the trick to having good brakes on the street. If someone races like I do, I can tailor pads and even the complete brake system to what I'm doing. But for the street (towing) you need to have tradeoffs and build a balanced system.

Here is more on the subject from a manufacture: "We have to determine whether the trade-off between great braking performance and fade-resistance is balanced appropriately with the level of noise and dust generated. We are the ones who determine the performance levels that we provide to customers, but the biggest obstacle is trying to figure out the balance that delivers the required performance at the highest level. Increasing the brake's friction coefficient improves braking performance and pedal feel, but in turn affects quality in other areas. The ideal balance might be achieved with the brake pad requirements, but the calipers and disc rotors can also play a key role. All this is part of the enjoyment of developing genuine parts.

Pretty much exactly what I have been saying in this thread! All of these parts are part of a "system." If you change one part of the system that was not developed with the system in mine, bad things or unintended consequences "can" happen. They might be minor, like more brake dust, or more major like poor cold brake performance. But they will happen.

[ScottG]

4x4ord wrote:
I'm happy to tow at 62 mph. Likely towing at 70 mph will increase your kinetic energy by about 35% and your fuel consumption by 15%. If you're worried about safety you could just slow down a little.

People who want to stop better don't just want to do so at 70. They want to stop better at all speeds.

[ScottG]

deltabravo wrote:

ScottG wrote:
At a minimum I would have the brake fluid flushed.

Ditto.

Drilled and Slotted rotors are not a thin I'd recommend for tow vehicles. Think of the amount of rotor surface you lose with the holes and slots.

That's why I skipped them.
On a vehicle that is sustaining multiple rapid stops in a row the holes are of benefit to let gasses out but with trucks, where your more likely to have one strong stop from high speed, that added material is better.

[deltabravo]

ScottG wrote:
At a minimum I would have the brake fluid flushed.

Ditto.

Brake pads on the 4 wheel disc GM trucks are known to last 100k miles, or more.

My dad has an 06 2500HD CCSB. has about 70k miles on it. Brakes were at 70% when he had them looked at a few weeks ago.

I had an 02 2500HD that I ran up to 60k miles before selling it, brakes were still 80%

Drilled and Slotted rotors are not a thin I'd recommend for tow vehicles. Think of the amount of rotor surface you lose with the holes and slots.

[ppine]

I was towing my boat at around 65 mph, with a fair amount of traffic. A bobcat committed suicide on my front tire, but it was too dangerous to risk locking up the brakes and jackknifing the boat. I am still sad about it. Ford truck brakes are pretty great after years of below average ones until around 2000.

[4x4ord]

I'm happy to tow at 62 mph. Likely towing at 70 mph will increase your kinetic energy by about 35% and your fuel consumption by 15%. If you're worried about safety you could just slow down a little.

[73guna]

Flush and fill your power steering fluid also.
This made a world of difference for my truck.

[ScottG]

mapguy wrote:

ScottG wrote:

mapguy wrote:
If you go to a semi metallic pads -you will give up long life for a very minor performance upgrade.

Kind of agree. You may loose service life but in that case Of Hawk pads, the performance is much greater.

In my own application, I will gladly give up 75% (exaggerated) of service life for 25% better braking.
Pads are relatively cheap and in an emergency, I'm not concerned with saving $30~$60 bucks. Just want to stop fast.

If I put many hundreds of thousands of miles on my rig I may feel different but with only 5~6K a year and lots of mountain towing, excellent brakes are a good investment to me.

Scott -my comments are directly aimed at the OP's vehicle, a 2500hd/3500 Classic Series GM truck. I have a 2006 2500HD/Duramax. The performance of the OEM brake pads is very good and last a long time, too. These trucks do need regular maintenance of the caliper pins and pad fitment to maintain the excellent stopping power. The ongoing pin and pad fitment maintenance is where most fail....on these trucks.

For me, a balance in performance and longevity is a requirement for my truck. It is driven every day -sometime loaded, sometimes empty, sometimes towing a 14k toyhauler to remote mountain locations mainly in Washington, Idaho, or Oregon. Many of these remote mountain locations require going over dirt road passes that make Stevens Pass/ US2 seem flat.

I know Steven well. It was a couple of miles west of the turnoff to Lake Wenatchee CG on US2 where I had a herd of dear or elk (forget now) ran out in front of us. I was glad to have all the stopping power I had.

Funny thing was that I could never get the TT brakes to work very well and they would never lock under any conditions.
When I had to hit the brakes that hard at speed, the TT's weight transferred so hard to the truck that the tires of the trailer locked up.
Man, that was close!

When we had 4 wheelers, we spent a lot of time at Bullfrog Flats and Rieder pit (sp?). I think they're both closed now 😞

[ScottG]

Planning wrote:

ScottG wrote:
in that case Of Hawk pads, the performance is much greater.

Just for curiosity, I went to the Hawk site and they have nothing for my truck: "No parts found"

I don't need brakes now, but doing research and planning ahead.

That's strange!
I went through Amazon and found these Hawk pads for your 2016 F350: Linkaroonie

Something is funny there though. Two of them only list up to 2015 but the application chart I used gave those as the result.

[Planning]

mapguy wrote:
pin and pad fitment maintenance is where most fail....on these trucks.

What is your regimen for these items?

[mapguy]

ScottG wrote:

mapguy wrote:
If you go to a semi metallic pads -you will give up long life for a very minor performance upgrade.

Kind of agree. You may loose service life but in that case Of Hawk pads, the performance is much greater.

In my own application, I will gladly give up 75% (exaggerated) of service life for 25% better braking.
Pads are relatively cheap and in an emergency, I'm not concerned with saving $30~$60 bucks. Just want to stop fast.

If I put many hundreds of thousands of miles on my rig I may feel different but with only 5~6K a year and lots of mountain towing, excellent brakes are a good investment to me.

Scott -my comments are directly aimed at the OP's vehicle, a 2500hd/3500 Classic Series GM truck. I have a 2006 2500HD/Duramax. The performance of the OEM brake pads is very good and last a long time, too. These trucks do need regular maintenance of the caliper pins and pad fitment to maintain the excellent stopping power. The ongoing pin and pad fitment maintenance is where most fail....on these trucks.

For me, a balance in performance and longevity is a requirement for my truck. It is driven every day -sometime loaded, sometimes empty, sometimes towing a 14k toyhauler to remote mountain locations mainly in Washington, Idaho, or Oregon. Many of these remote mountain locations require going over dirt road passes that make Stevens Pass/ US2 seem flat.

[Planning]

ScottG wrote:
in that case Of Hawk pads, the performance is much greater.

Just for curiosity, I went to the Hawk site and they have nothing for my truck: "No parts found"

I don't need brakes now, but doing research and planning ahead.

[ScottG]

mapguy wrote:
If you go to a semi metallic pads -you will give up long life for a very minor performance upgrade.

Kind of agree. You may loose service life but in that case Of Hawk pads, the performance is much greater.

In my own application, I will gladly give up 75% (exaggerated) of service life for 25% better braking.
Pads are relatively cheap and in an emergency, I'm not concerned with saving $30~$60 bucks. Just want to stop fast.

If I put many hundreds of thousands of miles on my rig I may feel different but with only 5~6K a year and lots of mountain towing, excellent brakes are a good investment to me.

[mapguy]

ktmrfs wrote:

Paul Clancy wrote:
GM brakes on the HD trucks have a real reputation for lasting forever and working extremely well. As with any they can suffer from rust in caliber pins if in heavy salt. As t/p said - oem is best on these for several hundred thousand. An inspection is always wise as is fluid change.

Between myself and 4 people I know with 2500/3500 GM trucks, we have all gone past 150K miles with still plenty of pad left on the brakes.

And we all tow reasonably heavy. None of us has ever had any issues that indicated the brakes were even coming close to overheating even on very long steep downhills. Between tow/haul, grade brake and/or exhaust brake the truck is extremely capable.

Just do a good brake fluid flush every year or two, as one should do on ANY vehicle IMHO.

And on our 2015, the brakes are even bigger than my 04.5 along with the exhaust brake.

The OEM brake pads on this truck were a ceramic based compound. Long lasting and stop very well -IF the caliper pins are kept lubricated properly and the pad fit is maintained.

OEM pads are sourced from AKEBONE. AC Delco Advantage Ceramic pads are the OEM formulation pads. IMO these pads are hard to beat due to the excellent performance with long life. If you go to a semi metallic pads -you will give up long life for a very minor performance upgrade.

[myredracer]

Don't overlook the brakes on your FW. Many whine and complain about junk Ch*nese tires and other Ch*nese made stuff in our RVs, but don't seem to think twice about the brakes (or bearings) made over there. Besides the drums, shoes and parts inside the drums, wiring can sometimes be bad. The only way to ensure they're in good condition is to pull the drums for an inspection, not doing a lockup breaking test.

Don't know how old your FW is, but even brakes or bearings on a new FW or TT can be trouble. Another but related topic, if you haven't it might be time for a bearing inspection & repack.

Not the same, but when we had our old F150, my BIL who owns an auto parts shop sold us some ceramic pads and vented rotors. Huge improvement! Our F250 has the original pads and rotors and may upgrade them at some point but work well as is.