How do you really judge TV adequacy anymore?

[Mickeyfan0805]

I've spent a lot of time looking at the ever-changing capabilities of pick-ups, and a separate thread earlier today really go me thinking about the uselessness of truck categories. The 1/2, 3/4 and 1-ton badges simply don't mean what they once did. With this in mind,
I went to the 2019 Ford specs and found an F150 with 13k in conventional towing and 2,870 in payload. Meanwhile, I found an F350 with 12,300 in towing and 2,910 in payload.

Now, these are the rarities and the extremes, but it points out the variance in the traditional truck grades, and it makes me ask a question. Even the most conservative rules of thumb, when we first started in the camping world 10 years ago, suggested that one could tow up to 80% of towing capacity. Then, in the 1/2 ton market, we would always say that payload was the limiting factor. The thing is, it's not anymore!

In the F150 case above, the 80% rule would have someone towing a 10,400 pound trailer with an F150, and that would only use 1,200-1,500 pounds of their 2,870 payload - giving them plenty of leeway for passengers and gear.

So, my question is this...How do we judge what is sufficient anymore? How do we know what a truck is realistically capable of? I don't know many F150 owners that would suggest towing a 10k trailer, but one could do that well within the limits of the modern-day specs.

I've always been one to say, 'Know your numbers and live within them.' That is the rule I've followed myself. Now I wonder if that advice is really sufficient anymore.

[wing_zealot]

Huntindog wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:
Read the SAE J2807 standard and maybe you will find your answer. That is after all the basis for the ratings.

Note that the standard is purely a performance standard.

It does NOT rate durability, or how comfortable the tow is at all.

I believe that is exactly what this thread is about. Will it perform?

[troubledwaters]

Opps double post - my bad!

[troubledwaters]

Grit dog wrote:
YOU should get off the internet and Take your 1/2 ton and tow the guts out of it. Or stop with the suppositions and do more listening and learning.

Oh I guess civility is out now. But still, nothing but your own personal opinion.

But, you got to make up your mind Grit.
Here’s one, 13K behind a half ton??

Grit dog wrote:
Don't doubt it.
Been driving a '19 for the last week and it is a noticeable step up from the 2016 I have and it just feels heavier and stouter. Dunno what gears it has, but it feels like a 5.3 and is 8 speed, not the 10. Haven't popped the hood.
13k is a lot of weight and not for the faint of heart behind a half ton, but it will pull I believe.
Actually a very nice truck.

Clicky


Wait, here’s another where you are responded to someone else. Half Tons are Capable??

Grit dog wrote:

hvac wrote:
I am successfully towing cross country for the past 2 years with a half ton, it is a diesel, 8 spd, 3.92, full air suspension. 28 ATC front bedroom. Loaded approx 7600lb.

The combination yields high altitude performance and no drama. Half tons are very capable towing.

Lol, not possible, must have been a dream......according to the rvnet extremists.

Clicky

Oh another - They all will tow just fine???

Grit dog wrote:
Oh my, for cripes sakes, not that this thread is any different than any other half ton towing thread, except that benk said something totally off the wall when usually his microscopic mechanical analysis is pretty spot on, but beer brewer, slow down, step away from the computer, breath a few deep breaths and go buy a freekin truck that you can drive on the stupid parkways or freeways or whatever they are AND tow a TT with.
Pick your favorite brand 1/2 ton. Ford, GM Ram, Yota or Nissan. Get the big motor and trailer/ payload/super whatever towing package.
Go buy a trailer that is within the range of the ones you're looking at, becasue they ALL will tow just fine.
And GO CAMPING already!

Seriously bud, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I've towed stuff that size all over town or all over the country for almost 30 years now, since I got my drivers license, with a lot of differnet 1/2 tons. Many of which, in stock form, that would not hold a candle to any 2018 model pickup in terms of power, handling, braking, stability or strength.
It ok. You can do it..

clicky
So which is it, it can tow within its ratings or it can't?

Oh, and by the way, I'm not going to be getting off the internet. I see it as my duty to offer valid counterpoints (not withstanding the smartest person in the room attitude). You don't like my posts, use the block button.

[Huntindog]

troubledwaters wrote:
Read the SAE J2807 standard and maybe you will find your answer. That is after all the basis for the ratings.

Note that the standard is purely a performance standard.

It does NOT rate durability, or how comfortable the tow is at all.

[Grit_dog]

troubledwaters wrote:
So far you haven't refuted that the 1500 series trucks are capable of towing within their ratings.
What you have done is advocated that heavy duty trucks serve a purpose also (no argument here).

PS: By the way, that "fairly new truck" has a 500,000 miles on it, and its still going. I'd say he got his money's worth out of it.
I expect to get my money's worth out of my F150 also.

“He” also has what’s regarded as maybe the best auto trans out there and yes it says great things for his Ecodiesel and it’s reliability. I wonder why all the camper haulers don’t use half tons........You should tell them what they’re missing out on. Preach it brotha!
Now I’m usually the first guy to chime in when the rvnet ninnies tell someone they “have” to have a HD pickup to tow something that is within a 1/2 tons wheelhouse. Because it simply isn’t true. It is typically qualified with how much, how many miles, altitude, etc though.
I’ve got a 1/2 ton work truck that I tow heavy with sporadically. Have done it for years with dozens of 1/2 tons. And also with 3/4 tons. Guess which one lasts longer?
I’ll give you a clue.....the 1/2 ton Chevy shelled out the transmission at 60k miles and the springs sag a bit parked next to an identical truck that hasn’t been worked.
Does it still run great? Yup
But I’ve towed more and sometimes heavier and certainly pushed the truck harder with my personal 3/4 ton. 170k Miles, original trans and brake rotors. Can’t say the same for most half tons.

YOU should get off the internet and Take your 1/2 ton and tow the guts out of it. Or stop with the suppositions and do more listening and learning.

[troubledwaters]

Read the SAE J2807 standard and maybe you will find your answer. That is after all the basis for the ratings.

[Mickeyfan0805]

Lantley wrote:

However I'm not sure this post is about value and money as much as it is: "How to choose the right truck for the job"?
Towing parameters are very important and should be factored when choosing a truck, however how you plan to use the truck is equally important. Focusing solely on towing parameters alone when comparing trucks would be a mistake

Exactly, and I still feel it is a fairly open question. There are those 'in the know,' who are learned in the various distinctions in design and build. There are many others, however (myself among them), who do not have mechanical backgrounds and want to make the best decisions. Historically, I felt that staying within the ratings of a truck would accomplish that goal. Nowadays, I'm questioning that.

It used to be that ratings served as something of an objective guideline in the face of the subjective question of 'What would I be comfortable with?' The more they stretch the ratings, the more I wonder if those ratings no longer serve that same objective purpose. That's the foundation of my struggle.

Allow me to ask my question in a different way...

Newer 1/2 ton trucks are rated for significantly higher towing and payload capacities than they used to be. Are they really able to handle that much more with the same degree of stability and durability, or have the manufacturers gotten more generous with their ratings? Asked another way, is a modern day 1/2 ton that has 40% more in payload capacity than those of a decade earlier really 40% more capable to carry that load?

[Lantley]

troubledwaters wrote:
So far you haven't refuted that the 1500 series trucks are capable of towing within their ratings.
What you have done is advocated that heavy duty trucks serve a purpose also (no argument here).

PS: By the way, that "fairly new truck" has a 500,000 miles on it, and its still going. I'd say he got his money's worth out of it.
I expect to get my money's worth out of my F150 also.

I agree I don't dispute that 1500 series or any series truck is capable of towing within its parameters.
What I question is that a 1500 series is as capable as a 3500 series even if their payload capacities are similar.
There is more that distinguishes the trucks than simple payload rating.
Accomplishing 500K on 2 diesel engines is OK but it not an outrageous achievement. Apparently something gave out on the 1st one.
As far as getting your money's worth. I expect to get my monies worth as well. My last truck was a 2007 3500 Duramax dually that was still going with 300K on original engine and trans when I traded it . While the rest of the truck had signs of wear the drive train was still going strong. I expect at least the same mileage if not more out of this truck.
However I'm not sure this post is about value and money as much as it is: "How to choose the right truck for the job"?
Towing parameters are very important and should be factored when choosing a truck, however how you plan to use the truck is equally important. Focusing solely on towing parameters alone when comparing trucks would be a mistake

[troubledwaters]

So far you haven't refuted that the 1500 series trucks are capable of towing within their ratings.
What you have done is advocated that heavy duty trucks serve a purpose also (no argument here).

PS: By the way, that "fairly new truck" has a 500,000 miles on it, and its still going. I'd say he got his money's worth out of it.
I expect to get my money's worth out of my F150 also.

[Lantley]

troubledwaters wrote:

Lantley wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:
..."towing within its tow ratings"... Reading Comprehension 101

There is the towing within the ratings and then their is the duty cycle thing.
If you are just a weekend warrior going out occasionally, that F150 may get it done for a once a month trip or an occasional trip.
However if you are a full timer crisscrossing the country regularly an F-350 will be more capable vs. an F-150. Assuming both vehicles have similar towing parameters.

There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow every all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point. Matter of fact, there is a hot shotter on this forum that does so with a Ram 1500, all day, every day (Oh! but say it isn't so!, he even exceeds his ratings, the nerve of some people).
I had a 2002 F250, V10, I towed a lot, I wore it out; the same I expect to do with my F150. #grittyinternetfables

This is where the experience factor comes in. People who use their trucks for a living drive heavy duty trucks. Go to your local big box store and note what contractors are using. Go to your local utility company and note what trucks you see in their yard.
Heavy Duty trucks rule the working world because they need to be available every day. They also need to withstand the rigors of being loaded down with cargo their entire lifespan.
For light duty applications you may find a few 1500 series trucks being used commercially, but the trucks carrying the tools and cargo are heavy Duty trucks.
We haven't seen ecoBoost technology placed in heavy duty trucks because of heat and duty cycle concerns.
Heavy duty trucks are made for a reason otherwise they would not exist
Sure there maybe one hot shotter using a 1500 but 99% of the hot shotters are using heavy Duty trucks.
Go to the destination CG's and note what truck full timers are using.
Real world observations will speak for themselves.
I'm not saying you can't full time with a 1500 series truck . I am saying a 1500 with a larger payload capacity will not hold up as well as a 3500 series truck with a similar capacity when used at full capacity on a daily basis.
By the way I believe the one hot shotter you referenced has a rebuilt engine in his fairly new truck.

[troubledwaters]

Lantley wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:
..."towing within its tow ratings"... Reading Comprehension 101

There is the towing within the ratings and then their is the duty cycle thing.
If you are just a weekend warrior going out occasionally, that F150 may get it done for a once a month trip or an occasional trip.
However if you are a full timer crisscrossing the country regularly an F-350 will be more capable vs. an F-150. Assuming both vehicles have similar towing parameters.

There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point. Matter of fact, there is a hot shotter on this forum that does so with a Ram 1500, all day, every day (Oh! but say it isn't so!, he even exceeds his ratings, the nerve of some people).
I had a 2002 F250, V10, I towed a lot, I wore out parts, I replaced parts; the same I expect to do with my F150.

[Grit_dog]

^Noooooooo, say it ain't so Lantley. I feel so, so uhhhhh deceived! #troubledcomprehension

[Lantley]

troubledwaters wrote:
..."towing within its tow ratings"... Reading Comprehension 101

There is the towing within the ratings and then their is the duty cycle thing.
If you are just a weekend warrior going out occasionally, that F150 may get it done for a once a month trip or an occasional trip.
However if you are a full timer crisscrossing the country regularly an F-350 will be more capable vs. an F-150. Assuming both vehicles have similar towing parameters.

[troubledwaters]

..."towing within its tow ratings"... Reading Comprehension 101

[Huntindog]

troubledwaters wrote:

Bert Ackerman wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

Bert Ackerman wrote:
..If anyone believes a 1500 truck is just as capable because it has the same or more payload as a 2500 truck, or based any other number like tow ratings, or has some super duper package, they're living in Fantasyland.

Or maybe you're living in fantasyland. A F150/1500 truck is just as capable of towing within its tow rating as a F350/3500 is of towing within its ratings. I believe all models are now tested and rated per J2807 standard.

I knew better than to get involved in this foolishness. You all have fun hashing it out, I'm going down to the bar and see if I can get an early bird special on happy hour.

There is nothing more that needs to be hashed out. The trucks are tested and rated per the standard. Enjoy your beer.

So according to your logic.... The bigger trucks are no longer needed.... Why do they still make them and sell them then?

I have never heard of a Hotshotter using a 150/1500..... It would be more cost effective for them, and allow them to make more money.... What do they know, that you don't?