How to stay warm

[blckgnx]

Just purchased a 2016 Forest River Rockwood 2304DS and almost froze last night. Temps are 27degree and furnace will not even get close to keeping us warm. Purchased a 1500watt Oil electric heater today, and that will not keep us warm either(we did turn the furnace OFF) after plugging in the electric Oil heater. Please! Any suggestions.

[Gdetrailer]

Huntindog writes “You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time”

So.. If someone tells you jump off a cliff BECAUSE they did and lived, you should do it also?

That “justification” is school kid mentality..

There where MILLIONS of houses and mobile homes built in the 1970s and early 1980s which were exclusively wired with ALUMINUM WIRE for all outlets and switches.. Some burned MOST did not and are still in use today..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

Millions of homes, mobile homes, RVs plumbed with grey QUEST plastic pipe.. Some broke and flooded and MOST have not and in fact most are STILL IN USE TODAY..

Does that make it right or good to use?

No.

There where millions of 80% efficient FURNACES in homes and mobile homes in the 1980s through late 1990s which high temperature plastic pipe was used to connect the furnace to the flue.. It was recalled when it was discovered that the pipe indeed would get brittle and crack causing a high risk of CO poisoning.. Some DID crack, some were replaced, many are STILL in use (recall never done).

Does it make it right or good to use?

No.

As far as screws used in mobile applications coming loose.. I would be more scared of that little 14 ga contact point heating up and causing a fire with a heavy load.. That contact point is a lot like having a piece of 24 ga speaker wire between the 14ga wire and the plug.. Sure it can be done, for a short time, then it over heats..

Can’t say that I have had ANY of my screw terminals come loose even in mobile applications over the years and heck, even my GENERATORS all USE SCREW TERMINALS for the OUTLET TERMINATIONS FROM FACTORY..

Boy you want a shake test, a GENERATOR will test your connections..

There ALSO IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RV VERSION” of a vampire tap.. Never was designed for RV EXCLUSIVE RV USE, but it found it's way there for EASE OF INSTALLATION.

It was designed for MOBILE HOME BUILDERS to BUILD FASTER WITH LESS LABOR. Has nothing to do with "quality" but has everything to do with trimming the cost per unit built.

RV manufacturers picked up on the idea of saving labor time and ran with it..

I WILL STILL PICK MY SCREW CONNECTIONS OVER THE FLIMSY VAMPIRE TAP ANY DAY.

[Downwindtracke1]

Now you've gone and used logic, what fun is that.

[Gdetrailer]

jaycocreek wrote:

Marketing double speak.. AND a PACK OF LIES..

Really,Just what is your "first hand" experience with a modern infared box heater in an RV?

I have used just about every heater made in my RV including Catalytic/Kerosene/Ceramic/Infared/oil etc etc and still have quite a collection of them.The infared box heater does by far the best job of all of them except maybe the Catalytic, in keeping my 30ft trailer and 21ft Motorhome warm in Idaho's winter climate.

Just to show I use it in an RV,here is a picture of it in the RV.



And in the house which it does an excellent job at,much more than any other portable heater I have used..I currently have a milk house heater/a tower heater/ceramic and the good old regular electric heater with setting from 400 watts to 1500 watts.I just sold a oil heater.

The airflow from this heater far exceeds any other I have tried and probably why it heats large area's much better.

Perhaps YOU did not read my comments very well..

YOU quoted DIRECTLY from the manufacturer of YOUR "infared" heater that CLEARLY STATES it CAN HEAT 1500 square feet..

That IS a pack of lies.

To TRULY HEAT 1500 square feet it would take about TEN of those heaters.

1500W is 1500W and 5200 BTUs IS 5200 BTUS.

It IS well established in the heating world that you NEED 6W-12W PER SQUARE FOOT (depending on insulation and such), the manufacturer of your heater is claiming they can do it with only ONE WATT per square ft.

One watt per square ft is just not happening.

YOUR heater pretty much in order to stay within several guidelines set forth by dear old NEC that LIMITS the max amount that a PORTABLE HEATING DEVICE CAN DRAW.

That LIMIT IS 1500W.

In order for your device to get UL approval it MUST MEET that guideline..

That ABSOLUTE MAX BTU you will ever get out ANY portable electric heater IS 5200 BTU..

To get more it would have to be a OVER UNITY device (AKA PERPETUAL MACHINE)..

I think you are mistaking the quicker heat up as being more heat available or works better than your other heaters..

Some heaters are slow and some heat faster, yours IS A FORCED AIR heater, there IS A FAN INSIDE.

And YES, I have been around SEVERAL different manufacturers of those types of heaters..

YES, you do get heat but personally I find them NO BETTER than any OTHER heaters in the SAME WATTAGE category. They just heat faster than non forced air options.

[MKirkland]

My wife has allergies and likes the windows open at night even when it's cold outside. We rarely use the furnace. My salvation has been a good heating blanket turned up to MAX. During the day, we get enough heat from cooking and other things to stay warm.

[Samsonsworld]

mbopp wrote:
A 1500 watt heater outputs 5100 BTU. Your furnace should be a minimum of 20,000 BTU and probably more. So the furnace should output 4X as much as the space heater at a minimum.

I've run two electric heaters, a 1500 watt and a 1000 watt and not tripped the 30A breaker.

2 1500 watt space heaters trip my trailer's breaker box so last time out, I ran a separate extension cord out the door for the second heater. Worked like a charm.

[pianotuna]

Hi Gde,

Nope, the 7000 watts comes free with the site rental. I have a 50 to 30 and two 20 amp breakout box. That feeds three shore power cords, an OEM 30, a secondary 20 amp, and a tertiary 15 amp.

mp

Gdetrailer wrote:
Yikes, that is one heck of a lot of electric!

Roughly 23,870 BTUs..

Hope you are not paying for that heat.

[jaycocreek]

I use the Wave 8 in my travel trailer.It does a great job in the cold.I would not own a RV without a Catalytic heater in it.I crack a window up front and one in the rear and never had an issue ever.

[westend]

goducks10 wrote:
Saw a post on another forum about these heaters. They seem pretty efficient and no need to worry about poor wiring or small elec cords.
The nice thing is they run on low pressure LP so you can tap your RV line and run off the RV tanks.
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/olympian-wave-3-catalytic-safety-heater/19332

From the product description: "For use in vented areas only". Remember to crack those windows and a ceiling vent open before using.

[goducks10]

Saw a post on another forum about these heaters. They seem pretty efficient and no need to worry about poor wiring or small elec cords.
The nice thing is they run on low pressure LP so you can tap your RV line and run off the RV tanks.
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/olympian-wave-3-catalytic-safety-heater/19332

[jaycocreek]

Marketing double speak.. AND a PACK OF LIES..

Really,Just what is your "first hand" experience with a modern infared box heater in an RV?

I have used just about every heater made in my RV including Catalytic/Kerosene/Ceramic/Infared/oil etc etc and still have quite a collection of them.The infared box heater does by far the best job of all of them except maybe the Catalytic, in keeping my 30ft trailer and 21ft Motorhome warm in Idaho's winter climate.

Just to show I use it in an RV,here is a picture of it in the RV.



And in the house which it does an excellent job at,much more than any other portable heater I have used..I currently have a milk house heater/a tower heater/ceramic and the good old regular electric heater with setting from 400 watts to 1500 watts.I just sold a oil heater.

The airflow from this heater far exceeds any other I have tried and probably why it heats large area's much better.

[Huntindog]

Gdetrailer wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Gde,

Thanks for the great photos of the vampire connectors.

My peak demand in truly cold weather is 7000 watts.

:E

Yikes, that is one heck of a lot of electric!

Roughly 23,870 BTUs..

Hope you are not paying for that heat..

Folks who argue "for" those vampire taps NEEDED to really see how poor of a connection they are..

They are not used for "quality", instead they are used by the RV industry to SPEED UP THE BUILD.. Time is money so if they can have a worker make more connections per hr using vampire taps the manufacturer SAVES money in LABOR costs AND can pump out more units per worker..

You do know that many if not most S&B houses are wired in a similar fashion. I have seen quite a few that forgo using the screw teminalal that are present and unstead use the quicker push in wire attachment... Not disputing which one may be better... Just stating a fact. I do think that the screws make for better contact when new,,, But the downside in a mobile application may be the a tendancy to loosen over time

[Gdetrailer]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Gde,

Thanks for the great photos of the vampire connectors.

My peak demand in truly cold weather is 7000 watts.

:E

Yikes, that is one heck of a lot of electric!

Roughly 23,870 BTUs..

Hope you are not paying for that heat..

Folks who argue "for" those vampire taps NEEDED to really see how poor of a connection they are..

They are not used for "quality", instead they are used by the RV industry to SPEED UP THE BUILD.. Time is money so if they can have a worker make more connections per hr using vampire taps the manufacturer SAVES money in LABOR costs AND can pump out more units per worker..

[pianotuna]

Hi Gde,

Thanks for the great photos of the vampire connectors.

My peak demand in truly cold weather is 7000 watts.

[Gdetrailer]

Jaycocreek writes “As an example of how the new box type infared heaters with a fan work, from Heaterlab.com.I own a SunHeat and it does a much better job of heating either my travel trailer or motorhome than any standard portable electric I have ever owned..I use mine in the house also.
Quote:

One more great infrared heater by the LifeSmart brand. LifeSmart Power Plus is designed for heating rooms with up to 1500 square footage. This unit equips 6 quartz infrared elements. Each one is wrapped in a metal coil that acts as a heat exchanger. Having 6 elements it produces more heat.”

Marketing double speak.. AND a PACK OF LIES..

Just because it has “6 elements” does not mean it makes MORE heat.

Just because those “elements” are “wrapped in a metal coil” does not mean that this design makes more heat.

A watt is a watt and a BTU is a BTU.

A watt of energy only can create a certain amount of BTU..

Typically accepted definition is 1Watt is 3.41 BTU per hr..

1500W heater can DRAW 5115 BTU (typically rounded up to 5200 BTU)

PORTABLE electric heaters ARE energy limited devices, they are not allowed to exceed 1500W DRAW which is 12.5A at 120V.. Which happens to also be 80% of a 15A circuit for CONTINUOUS POWER DRAW.

So, your amazing infared box heater cannot supply any more than 5200 BTU per hr of heat, it CAN however supply LESS than 5200 BTU..

Since a portable electric heater is LIMITED to no more than 1500W (12.5A at 120V) power draw that means the heating elements AND the fan motor CAN NOT EXCEED 1500W!

So if the fan motor draws 100W on high speed the heating elements CAN NOT EXCEED 1400W or 4774 BTU!

That means your amazing infared box heater can only DELIVER a MAX of about 4800 BTU since the FAN will consume about 400 BTU worth of energy..

I will also add that I am being very “generous” in my calculations..

In reality since your amazing infared box heater is actually attempting to “convert” infared energy into heat, there IS a CONVERSION loss in the process (PER YOUR QUOTE of the LIFESMART BRAND which states .. “This unit equips 6 quartz infrared elements. Each one is wrapped in a metal coil that acts as a heat exchange”).

That “heat exchange” CREATES AN ENERGY EFFICIENCY LOSS.

Is it “possible” to heat 1500 square feet with a 1500W electric heater?

NO..

Life Smart has OVER EXAGERATED their claims of heating 1500 square feet! Looks to me like they have added an extra ZERO to mislead potential buyers into thinking it IS more powerful than the competitors product..

Per HERE

"A watt is an SI (metric) unit of power equal to one joule of energy per second. In terms of wattage, almost all 120 volt space heaters are rated up to 1500 watts at the maximum setting, and there is a 10/1 ratio of watts to square feet heated. Therefore, a 1500 watt space heater (120 volts) will be able to heat an area of 150 square feet, and a garage heater rated at 5,000 watts should be able to comfortably heat an area over 400 square feet.

In terms of BTUs, or British Thermal Units, this is also a unit of energy that is used globally in heating and air conditioning industries, but is not commonly used scientifically. Nonetheless, in North America, the term BTU describes the energy value of fuels, and is also used to describe the power of heating and cooling systems such as heaters. When used as unit of power, BTUs per hour is the commonly used term, and refers to the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. To convert watts to BTUs and vice versa, here are the conversion ratios:
1 watt = approximately 3.41 BTU/hour
1000 BTUs/hour is approximately 293 watts"


Life smart also left the “conditions” of their “test” which lead up to their claimed 1500 square feet.. Conditions such as outside temp, inside temp, insulation ect all play a huge effect to how well a heater will perform.. heck for we know they tested it on a balmy 68 degree day and was using to maintain 70 degrees.. ANY 1500W heater could do that..

Do some heat loss calculators.. You will find that A RV will need MORE than 1500W or 5200 BTUs to maintain temps at very low outside temps.

Here is a great place to go to for REAL information on how to properly size your electric heating requirements..

HEATER SELECTION TIPS

"General rule of thumb
The Wattage Selection Guide recommends approximately 6 watts per square foot for newer homes and 10 watts per square foot for older homes. If you live in a higher altitude or colder climate, we recommend adding 2 watts per square foot."

[Gdetrailer]

Huntindog writes “One thing to consider is that many walls in an RV are not thick enough for a standard outlet/box.. I believe that is why the RV version was developed... I have never had any trouble with mine.”

There ARE SHALLOW workboxes which ARE designed specifically for thin walls and with a slight trimming of the mud ring they work PERFECT in a RV wall (my 1984 TT CAME with this type of box and I bought some new boxes for the extra outlets I wanted to install)..



Available
HERE
for $2.35..

A shallow workbox with a HIGH QUALITY 20A outlet IS cheaper than a vampire tap outlet..

HERE
for $3.29

Cover for outlet costs about $1.00 for a Total of $6.64

A Hubbell outlet WDR15wt (15A in white) is $9.38 HERE

I found the Hubbell that I had laying around..



Contact is 24ga material which is .0239 inch thickness, wire contacts on two sides so the overall wire contact area is .0478 inches

Wire in contact photo


Photo of wire contact



Compared to a regular screw terminal outlet which the contact area is 5/8" LONG (.0625") and two sides of wire contact is 1.25"..

Photo of regular outlet



So tell me which one IS “superior again”?

What would YOU rather depend on in a high current situation?

Insulation displaced connection (Hubbell WDR15) or a screw terminal connection of a standard outlet..

I WILL take the screw terminal ANY DAY over the Hubbell vampire tap..