Illegal / dangerous to pull 11,000 trailer rated 10,000 lbs?

[jerryrigged]

I had another thread recently talking about how to set this up.

Curt/DrawTite both sell a hitch that can be added to a Ford Econoline 1-ton van (e350), but someone told me it's not only illegal but dangeroous to pull something higher than manufacture specs.

http://www.curtmfg.com/HitchLookup/find?year=2011&make=Ford&model=E-Series

or

http://www.reese-hitches.com/products/,41945

Is it illegal / dangerous to use this hitch pull 11,000 trailer rated 10,000 lbs?

[tatest]

I'm sticking my neck out on this one, the weight police are probably not going to like it.

The Draw-Tite hitch you line to is rated 12,000 pounds for weight distributing, 10,000 for weight carrying. With weight distribution, the hitch itself is good for a 11,000 trailer, since the rating is 12,000.

The highest "tow rating" I know of for an E-350 is 10,000 pounds, that would be the V-10 with 4.10 rear axle, which has 18,500 GCWR. The van with Powerstroke diesel (both the old 7.3 and the 6.0) both had high enough GCWR, at least 18,000 pounds, to give you 10,000 "tow rating."

Ford's "tow rating" for truck is more a guideline than it is a hard number. It is usually capped by either the hitch rating for Ford's tow package, or by the difference between GCWR and an estimated "curb weight" for the truck with standard equipment. It is an advertising number, and is sometimes called "maximum tow rating" because it can be really hard to find a truck equipped to meet the number.

The hard number is GCWR. Given an E-350 van loaded to 9500 pounds, an 18,500 GCWR leaves you only 9000 pounds for your tow. But an empty E-350 standard length commercial van weighs about 5900 pounds, so there is 12,100 of the GCWR left over for towing. Ford says 10,000 tow rating because Ford installs a 10,000 hitch on the van.

Curb weight is about 6000 for the extended E-350, 6500 for the 12 passenger van, 6900 for the extended 14/15 passenger van. With any of these, V-10 with 4.10 axle GCWR - Curb leaves at least 10,000 pounds, so Ford can still say "tow rating 10,000" based on their installation of a 10,000 pound hitch.

But you load up the van, it takes away from the tow rating. My E-350 passenger van has a GCWR of 13,000 and curb weight of 6300 for a "tow rating" of 6700. Does that mean I can tow a 6700 pound trailer? Only if the van is empty. I have a GVWR of 9500 pounds, for a cargo capacity of 3200 pounds. If I load the van to 9000 pounds (leaving something for hitch weight) my "tow rating" in that configuration is down to 4000 pounds.

Thus the "tow rating" is vague enough to have no legal meaning.

But pushing beyond GCWR for the van, that can be a problem. Is it dangerous? Not necessarily, if the trailer has adequate braking and the truck has adequate control. Sometimes GCWR is limited the drivetrain. The same van with 5.4 V8 has GCWR 5500 pounds less than the V-10 with 4.10 axle. The V-10 with 3.73 axle has GCWR 3500 pound less than the V-10 with 4.10 axle. They all have the same suspension components, weight carrying capacity, handling characteristics. All will handle the same with any given trailer, but the vans with smaller engines and lighter-duty transmissions will have less performance accelerating and climbing hills, and will wear out faster from the drivetrain overload.

Is it illegal to exceed a "tow rating" so ambiguously defined? It is not likely that you will find "tow rating" in any statutes or regulations. The relevant numbers are GVWR and GCWR. If you are paying road taxes based on those numbers, and you exceed them, then you have a weight violation. Not all states tax vehicles in this class by weight, but for those that do, it matters.

[Community Alumni]

razehm wrote:
It is illegal to go over you gross weight vehicle rating.

You'd be hard-pressed to validate that statement. This idea has been tossed around this forum and the like for years. Not once have I seen someone quote a statute that restricts a vehicle's weight to the GVWR. There's tons of regulations when it comes to commercial vehicles, but I have not seen any in regards to non commercial operators. Don't mean they don't exist, but no one has ever come up with one.

Like I said above, what you say is possible in a state with weight base registrations. You cannot legally exceed the registered weight of the vehicle in one of these states. If the vehicle was registered with the GVWR then yes, it is illegal to tow over the GVWR. However, in most of these states there's a pay to play system. You can essentially register the vehicle for whatever weight you want. If you have a 10k GVWR truck then you can pay to register it for 11k or 12k. In those cases you are legally towing over the manufacturer's GVWR. Whatever weight you pay for then that's your limit.

Commercial vehicle enforcement officers are just that. Their focus is commercial vehicles. Officers aren't pulling over non commercial operators over for weigh checks. Even if they did, they would need some statute that would prevent you from towing above your GVWR. They do however pull over vehicles that are obviously severely overweight. In those cases it's just a safety issue.

[RandACampin]

mtofell1 wrote:
Towing overweight on a non-commercial basis is illegal just as swapping out an outlet in your house without a permit is illegal. Both happen all the time. Things rarely go wrong when it's done. And when things do go wrong it's EXTREMELY rare for anyone to get in trouble for such actions.

If people never did dumb things there would be no need for insurance. If/when there is an at-fault accident the guy with the upside down TV and TT would be named if or if not he was overloaded. Again, this is what insurance is for.... people doing dumb things. Your own insurance company would have to come after you after they paid off the damage to the other parties. They'd have a very high bar to meet to convince a judge or jury. Could it happen? Of course. Has it happened? Maybe but no one can ever seem to produce any proof.



Should there be more/better enforcement of egregiously overloaded weekend warrior towers? IMO, yes. But there just isn't. No matter how much fear mongering and pontificating takes place on an internet forum.

Show me anywhere that states switching out an outlet in your house is illegal.

[dodge_guy]

jerem0621 wrote:

gsutton wrote:
this whole thread is bs.nothing illeagle and no more dangerous than thousands of rv's running up and down the road.all the psuedo lawyers and and insurance experts are full of it.

X2...experience makes a safe operator...

You can be under all weights and be a hazard on the road... Weight is just one part of safety...

I completely agree. I'de rather be on the road with the guy towing a 38ft 5'er with a 3/4 ton truck for 15 years, than the guy towing a TT with a dually for less than a week!

But!!!........everyone has to start fresh somewhere!

[jerem0621]

gsutton wrote:
this whole thread is bs.nothing illeagle and no more dangerous than thousands of rv's running up and down the road.all the psuedo lawyers and and insurance experts are full of it.

X2...experience makes a safe operator...

You can be under all weights and be a hazard on the road... Weight is just one part of safety...

[gsutton]

this whole thread is bs.nothing illeagle and no more dangerous than thousands of rv's running up and down the road.all the psuedo lawyers and and insurance experts are full of it.

[SolidAxleDurang]

popcorn

[mtofell1]

Towing overweight on a non-commercial basis is illegal just as swapping out an outlet in your house without a permit is illegal. Both happen all the time. Things rarely go wrong when it's done. And when things do go wrong it's EXTREMELY rare for anyone to get in trouble for such actions.

If people never did dumb things there would be no need for insurance. If/when there is an at-fault accident the guy with the upside down TV and TT would be named if or if not he was overloaded. Again, this is what insurance is for.... people doing dumb things. Your own insurance company would have to come after you after they paid off the damage to the other parties. They'd have a very high bar to meet to convince a judge or jury. Could it happen? Of course. Has it happened? Maybe but no one can ever seem to produce any proof.

Should there be more/better enforcement of egregiously overloaded weekend warrior towers? IMO, yes. But there just isn't. No matter how much fear mongering and pontificating takes place on an internet forum.

[jerem0621]

I'm thinking someone doesn't have enough experience to tow at GCWR let alone a few lbs over and needs to get more experience towing... A new receiver or a new truck for that matter will not make you safe. Even being in your ratings will not make you safe... Experience is what you need...

Towing is risky... Heck getting out of the bed in the morning is risky. Get experience to offset the risk.


Thanks!

[razehm]

It is illegal to go over you gross weight vehicle rating. It is unsafe for you to go over the GWVR. If you are in a collision and they figure that out your screwed. If a commercial vehicle enforcement officer figures out your over GWVR he will put you on his portable scales and find out how much and probably give you a big fat ticket for it. Probably not a high chance of that happening though. So its like swimming when there are no life guards, at your own risk. I'd say get a vehicle that will pull the trailer you got.

[dodge_guy]

I do have a question. What trailer are you looking at that weighs 11k lbs? What is its dry weight and CCC?

[Walaby]

Read through this thread a couple times, and Im still confused. What I think you're wanting to do and asking is

your van is rated for 10k, but you want to install an 11k rated hitch. No problem, and that's not illegal. You can install a 20k hitch if they make it, and you buy it.

Your van is rated for 10K, your hitch is rated for 11K, and you want to know if
a) you can tow 11k safely and b) is it legal.

a) Safely: That is tough to answer, and some folks use the various numbers to justify their decision. For instance, GCWR is only one consideration. To think that as long as you stay within the GCWR you are okay is not necessarily true. You can be well within your GCWR, but exceed the payload capacity of your tow vehicle. Also, there are some who say that some vehicles payload capacity is artificially set because said vehicle is a 3/4 ton pickup, and by definition, their max vehicle weight (GVWR) is 10K no matter what. That may or may not be true. Some folks (like myself) try to stay under all the established weights. I tend to want to err on the side of caution. Many factors, not just axle weights, and suspension, go into the GVWR. Brakes, stopping power, axle ratio etc, all impact that.

b) Legal: I have not found a state yet that I have to pull my truck/trailer combo into a weigh station and be weighed. So, there's no DOT entity watching over private owners to see if they are overweight. Having said that, in today's society, it would not surprise me in the slightest, if a lawyer would try to use weight (or exceeding capacities) as a cause or a contributor to an accident. I can't point to any specific cases where it's come up, but we all remember the McDonalds coffee case. Whether or not the plaintiff actually collects is almost secondary. The wringer that you COULD go through is enough to want me to stick at or below all my weight numbers.

Junket - if I were you, I'd replace the ball on your hitch to exceed 12K. My hitch and bars (Blue Ox Sway Pro) are rated at 15K, but I bought a 24K rated ball because it was available, at a good price. No way I would want the ball to be rated less than the hitch.

Mike

[Junket]

Don't know right or wrong I wonder about my w/d/ Hitch all are from the same manufacturer for my 12K trailer bars are 8k-12k but the BALL is rated at 6K??
Ken

[carringb]

You can install a heavier recevier and still be tow over 10,000 pounds and be under an specs.

The spec you need should follow is the Gross Combined Weight rating. As myself and others have mentioned, the advertised "tow rating" is limited by the original factory receiver. Ford publishes higher GCWRs for a reason. But if you don't want to do, then don't do it. If you're not comfortable with your setup, then you probably won't enjoy your trips.

[Community Alumni]

The only way I can see this being illegal is if you live in a state where weight based registrations exist. If the weight of the vehicle with the trailer hooked up exceeds the registered weight then that would be a violation. But this is more likely in the 5th wheel world since pin weights are almost always double the tongue weight of TT's. I'm not aware of any laws that prevent you from towing beyond the manufacturer's tow capacity.

Each state and jurisdiction has their own little set of rules and nuances. If you move through a lot of areas then you're going to have to talk to a lot of people if you want something concrete. No one on here will be able to tell you for sure if it's legal in the areas you travel within. All you're going to get here is a bunch of opinions, all of which could be wrong, including mine lol. So take these opinions with a grain of salt. If you receive a citation for some reason, I doubt anyone will step up to pay it for you. Keeping everything at or below the manufacturer specs will make life a lot easier and less stressful. You won't be towing with a bunch of legal or liability what ifs swirling around your head.

Controlling the weight of the trailer is fairly easy. There's nothing that says you have to tow the trailer at the full 11,000 lbs GVWR. Control the weight of the trailer to keep it within specs and worry less.