My China bomb story, could I have prevented it.

[buechlerj]

In June we purchased a 2007 Springdale 290CT. It has Power King Towmax ST tires that looked good with no unusual wear or any cracking. We had a 400 mile tow home from Boise in 85 degree weather and they worked well. They are dated 18th week of 2007 and I figured I would replace them at the end of the season. On June 27th we headed to Wenatchee which is about 180 miles, it was 85 degrees. 120 miles in I was in the left lane passing a semi and had to move into the rumble strip to avoid some tire debris in my lane. I did not hit them but as soon as I moved right my left rear tire was flat and shredding. Put the spare on, it still had a sticker on it and continued on. We met some friends to ride dirt bikes on July 1st and they brought me one of my old Goodyears for a spare. Tuesday the 2nd we headed home thru Wenatchee to the Grand Coulee dam on highway 2, It was 102 degrees.

Our next failure was a loud pop driving straight, the right front blew. Pulled into a field and put the spare with the old Goodyear. I always run my tires at 65 psi but I figured they might of over pressurized so I lowered all of the tires to 60 psi. 100 miles later the left rear went again and it was the spare which before Thursday had never been on the ground. I always drive 60 and on
the way home I weighed the trailer at a weigh station and it said 6860 on the axles. Would lower pressure of helped, lower speed or was it just bad tires to old?

[jerem0621]

myredracer wrote:
Sigh.... 😞 I feel no farther ahead on learning what is a good brand of ST tire or type to buy.

Personal opinions, rhetoric, mis-information, accusations, facts, distortions of fact, no facts, guesswork, etc., etc. Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. For me, I would just like a name or two or three that I can consider for a good choice in an ST tire. It's almost to the point of staying away from them completely because it's hard what to believe.

I've heard that the Marathon tires are being made in China? Is this true or not? Someone above claimed they are made in the US. Is it a true statement that Carlisle truly are made in the US. Don't know what to believe.

Some googling came up with a comment on one forum that said "All the Carlisles should be sent to Beruit to burn in the street!" A few other forums are recommending Denman tires. Haven't heard of them yet. Lot and lots of bad press on Marathon tires.

Our TT weighs nearly 7,000 lbs and has 4 x 1820 lb C tires on it. Almost to capacity in static state. If I am hearing right, it would be a good thing to go to at least D rated tires and even E rated tires? Would E tires be overkill?

Unclear on wheel rim width and diameter. Just to confirm, your rims need to be able to handle the higher air pressure of the D & E rated tires? And with LT tires, we'd have to replace the rims as the rim diameter and width is different? Don't want to have to replace the fancy alloy wheels on our new trailer to upgrade the tires. What about rim width for C/D/E tires? Our dealer was unable to tell us what the width is on our new trailer (with alloy wheels). Our brand has an order option of Marathon tires, but they tell you zip about technical stuff. How would your average uninformed RV buyer know why to upgrade to Marathon tires? Right off the bat, price is a deterrent anyway.

With more air pressure in tires, is the harsher ride going to be detrimental to the trailer or beneficial? I'd like to tame the bounce we have and are looking at installing shocks. Maybe tires with higher air pressure will help this...

Looking forward to what comes up next!! :B Great entertainment at the least.... :B

According to Tire Rack, GoodYear Marathons are made in China. Here is a link

Tire Rack Goodyear

Power King ST tires are also from China

Tire Rack "Power King" tires

My Maxxis tires came from Taiwan IIRC. Have they been flawless? Why, yes they have been actually.

My friend with four Chinese Goodyears has experienced TWO catastrophic tire failures.

As for me, I will only own Maxxis ST trailer tires as long as I pull TT's.

Are they magic? no..

Are they super powerful? No...

Do they have an awesome warranty? Why yes, for four years from the date of purchase as a matter of fact.

They are simply the best ST tire made today.

I have been hearing some good reports on Greenball ST tires and the New Carlisle tires. But for my coin, it will be Maxxis tires.

Thanks!

[myredracer]

Sigh.... 😞 I feel no farther ahead on learning what is a good brand of ST tire or type to buy.

Personal opinions, rhetoric, mis-information, accusations, facts, distortions of fact, no facts, guesswork, etc., etc. Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. For me, I would just like a name or two or three that I can consider for a good choice in an ST tire. It's almost to the point of staying away from them completely because it's hard to kow what to believe.

I've heard that the Marathon tires are being made in China? Is this true or not? Someone above claimed they are made in the US. Is it a true statement that Carlisle truly are made in the US. Don't know what to believe.

Some googling came up with a comment on one forum that said "All the Carlisles should be sent to Beruit to burn in the street!" A few other forums are recommending Denman tires. Haven't heard of them yet. Lot and lots of bad press on Marathon tires. Good grief...

Our TT weighs nearly 6,800 lbs and has 6800 lbGVWR with 4 x 1820 lb C tires on it. Almost to capacity in static state. If I am hearing right, it would be a good thing to go to at least D rated tires and even E rated tires? Would E tires be overkill?

Unclear on wheel rim width and diameter. Just to confirm, your rims need to be able to handle the higher air pressure of the D & E rated tires? And with LT tires, we'd have to replace the rims as the rim diameter and width is different? Don't want to have to replace the fancy alloy wheels on our new trailer to upgrade the tires. What about rim width for C/D/E tires? Our dealer was unable to tell us what the width is on our new trailer (with alloy wheels). Our brand has an order option of Marathon tires, but they tell you zip about technical stuff. How would your average uninformed RV buyer know why to upgrade to Marathon tires? Right off the bat, price is a deterrent anyway.

With more air pressure in tires, is the harsher ride going to be detrimental to the trailer or beneficial? I'd like to tame the bounce we have and are looking at installing shocks. Maybe tires with higher air pressure will help this...

Looking forward to what comes up next!! :B Great entertainment at the least.... :B

Did OP get helped out here??

[SprinklerMan]

From what I have observed over the years with my trailers and tires . My equipment trailers that I run at about 50% of capacity on local roads 35 to 50 mph , no problems with ST tires . My larger equip trailers and RV , when I had ST tires , lots of blow outs and tread seperation incidents , running at 90% of capacity and highway driving 60 to 75 mph . Switched to LT tires on heavy trailers and havent had a problem . I believe this is due to having 2000 lbs of extra capacity , and a higher speed rating .

NO TIRE is going to hold up constantly running at 90% capacity and at 95% of its speed rating in hot weather . Thats where I believe the problem lies with the ST trailer tire , on a travel trailer they are being run to their MAXIMUM or over for hours on end . Man made it , its gonna break , not if , its when .

[BarneyS]

Lowsuv wrote:
nobody can say that there is some brand of number one ST tires .
Consumer Reports tested Maxxis MA-T1 Escapade passenger car tires in their November 2012 issue on page 60 .
Consumer Reports purchases their tires and that issue covered about 62 all season tires and 16 winter tires .
The Maxxis were in the lowest 25 % .
Snip...

Why do you continually post this information that has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand? :R
ST trailer tires ARE NOT passenger car tires or truck tires! The test you seem to enjoy posting in tire threads DOES NOT APPLY to ST trailer tires. You are misleading the membership by posting that as a fact when, in reality, it is just your opinion! You should start putting "in my opinion" in your posts so people are not mislead.
Barney

[kedanie]

Well, you believers can continue to drink FE's Coolaid. ST tires do not present as much of a problem with TT's as they do with large 5ers and Toy Haulers. The problem seems to increase with the weight of larger RV's. if you ever move to a larger unit then you might change your mind about FE and his ST tire lobby.

Keith

[wmoses]

kedanie wrote:
Keep in mind that, in an earlier thread, FE all but admitted that he is indeed a "Internet Shill". His statement was that in this forum he doesn't have to admit it and you can't prove it.

Trying to argue with him is a never ending battle. He has the backing of the tire industry and the operators of this forum. The only thing you can do is point out the errors in his logic and hope that those reading will realize the fallacy that he promotes.

Keith

Keith

With all due respect, I don't agree with you. Unless I have misinterpreted his points, FE is stating a viewpoint every bit as valid and as useful as those who like to stand up and tout LT tires or Maxxis, or whatever tire is "best".

All these tire threads are essentially useless because, as was stated before:

• No one has provided information to scientific analysis that prove anything
• Marketing of tires is just like marketing of anything else, needs to be taken with a grain of salt especially when there is little / no proven technical basis
• Tires made in China or ST tires made anywhere, when used properly, work just as well as any other tire
• If there were real issues, the sales of these ST or Chinese tires woul stop, but the fact of the matter is ST and Chinese tires continue to sell despite all the "wisdom" on the Internet
• Manufacture in the USA is no guarantee, in and of itself, of quality. Junk is made here just as junk is made in China also.
• We have no way to know the exact conditions under which failed tires were used. In other words even so-called "quality" tires can fail dramatically when used outside of spec or common sense.
• Continuing these tire discussions are of little use but they still persist, because like anything on the Internet, anyone with a portal can show up and post anything as fact and countless others will latch on because "if it is written or on the Internet then it has some modicum of truth."

So it is not a case that one cannot "win" a discussion with FE. Like discussion the meaning of life, or religion, or politics, there is no one answer.

I do find it interesting that FE raises the point of ISO quality standards likely in use in these plants - as an engineer and a quality auditor, his point cannot be discounted.

[CapriRacer]

JJBIRISH wrote:
....Maybe a little straight talk from the US tire industry would help with their credibility, but I don’t see any credibility coming from the tire builders here…

Since only Goodyear and Carlisle are US producers of ST tires, I don't think the problem is "here". I think the bigger problem is foreign producers and any efforts for improvements need to be directed "there".

[kedanie]

Keep in mind that, in an earlier thread, FE all but admitted that he is indeed a "Internet Shill". His statement was that in this forum he doesn't have to admit it and you can't prove it.

Trying to argue with him is a never ending battle. He has the backing of the tire industry and the operators of this forum. The only thing you can do is point out the errors in his logic and hope that those reading will realize the fallacy that he promotes.

Keith

[FastEagle]

JJBIRISH wrote:


A few answers and thought provoking statements.



“The ST tire is just designed to withstand heavier loads than comparably sized tires from other designs.”

Translated is, the ST tire is rated to carry its fully rated load, (so are LT tires. P tires must be degraded for trailer axle use.) or in normal speak has no safety factor built into its specifications like the other type of tires that are also passenger carrying tires and must have a reserve built in (The only reserve difference is the way the tires are regulated. Then the reserves are provided by air pressure, not excess tire load capacity.) and also need to be de-rated even farther under some conditions…

The truth of the matter is ST tire will carry very little more if any at all, except for the easier certification standards (They are certified to their function.) and allowable ratings… if you allow for a respectable 15 % reserve in the ST tire the ratings would be very close to the same… (Reserves for all tires are derived from their published load capacity via tire pressure manipulations up to and including the maximum amount as depicted on their sidewalls. Anything other than that would have to be described on the tire’s sidewall information.)

The only real differences are legal ones that I am criticized for bringing up even though they exist and are real… I’m with you on that one.

Let’s not forget that RV tires have more UV protestants built into them… So say their manufacturers.

But in real life RV tires last no longer, if as long, and even worse the ST tire will last on average half as long as non RV tires in passenger use even with similar limited use… (ST tire manufacturers will tell you the same thing. But you left something out. LT & P tires are regulated differently and are setting around on more than adequate load capacity reserves. Most often the ST tires are not. The more load on the tire even in stationary usage will degrade faster.

Industry lobbying kept the ST tires from construction standard upgrade consideration when other tires had the standards changed and raised… the industry argued that the ST tire is not a passenger tire it is for trailer use only and there was very little risk of injury or property damage from their use as already built…

(You will have to provide a reference to support those statements. Being specifically designed for trailer axles does not in itself disqualify them from carrying passengers.

Geographical location is not a prerequisite for inferior production techniques. A journey via internet research will reveal many tire plants around the world in much better physical conditions than you might perceive. We live in a global society and peoples that produce goods for the global population have certification standards.

ISO/TS 16949 is the technical specification for automotive quality management systems. It formalizes, under a single global standard, the quality management system requirements that must be satisfied by those trading in the automotive industry.

ISO 14001 addresses "Environmental Management." It is the standard for what the organization does to minimize harmful effects on the environment caused by its activities and to achieve continuous improvement of its environmental performance.

How would one pass an unannounced management inspection if they were not, in fact, trained and qualified by the certification standards.

FastEagle

[JJBIRISH]

FastEagle wrote:
I could write in this thread all day and not penetrate the numerous fallacies that have already been posted. So, I’ll just post a few specific observations.

Tire testing: It is a subject that comes up in a long tire thread.

Manufacturers of tires suitable for use on our highways must first accomplish the necessary conditions to achieve permission to display the DOT symbol/acronym on their tires. That will require a series of tests approved by the DOT. That does not mean the DOT will oversee the testing. Initially the tires will be tested by their manufacturer. When they determine their tires are good enough to pass all testing standards they will use a third party testing facility (approved by the DOT). Only a percentage of the final production run will be tested. The paperwork is then submitted to the DOT for approval. Once approved the tires are shipped to wholesalers/retailers for distribution.

The ST tire is, as its name implies, special. Therefore, its DOT approved testing criteria will be tailored to its designed function (s). The ST tire is not designed for the drive or steer axles. It does not have to provide the construction necessary for those positions. The ST tire is just designed to withstand heavier loads than comparably sized tires from other designs.

The best example of the load capacity disparity between the ST tire and a like sized LT tire is quite an eye opener to those that are not very familiar with the various tire designs. The ST235/85R16E has a 3640# load capacity at 80 psi. The LT235/85R16E has a load capacity 3042# at 80 psi. Most often the LT tire will be heavier in weight than the like sized ST tire. That extra weight will most often be in the form of added items - taller treads, extra steel belt, sidewall inserts, etc. - that provide durability which does not add strength.

ST tires are speed restricted to 65 MPH. What does that mean? At 65 MPH it’s providing 100% of it’s load capacity.

Speed ratings are set by the tire’s manufacturer. There is a highly touted LT tire that has a 99 MPH rating when used on it’s designed market and a 75 MPH rating when used on self propelled RVs.

Already too long. Maybe more later.

FastEagle

The one fallacy you don’t write on is the one bestowed on us by the marketing departments of the tire manufactures and their related associations…
This is where we will never agree completely, because you have bought and promote the half-baked half-truth promotional positions of the tires builders and their associations…

“The ST tire is just designed to withstand heavier loads than comparably sized tires from other designs.”

Translated is, the ST tire is rated to carry its fully rated load, or in normal speak has no safety factor built into its specifications like the other type of tires that are also passenger carrying tires and must have a reserve built in and also need to be de-rated even farther under some conditions…

The truth of the matter is ST tire will carry very little more if any at all, except for the easier certification standards and allowable ratings… if you allow for a respectable 15 % reserve in the ST tire the ratings would be very close to the same…

The only real differences are legal ones that I am criticized for bringing up even though they exist and are real…

Let’s not forget that RV tires have more UV protectant built into them…

But in real life RV tires last no longer, if as long, and even worse the ST tire will last on average half as long as non RV tires in passenger use even with similar limited use…

While it is true the ST tire has some good design features available and tailored for trailer use… but that is all on paper… the tire needs and can be built to take advantage of all of those features and built to last…
The problem with that is, it can’t be built to take full advantage of those features and built to last, and build it cheap enough to sell in the numbers high enough with big enough margins to produce them…

It’s all marketing BS plain and simple, part of the plan… the exit of most major tire builders happen for those reasons… the rest raced offshore to increase the margins for the nitch market trailer tires… offshoring didn’t produce a better tire, only a cheaper tire with cheaper materials and almost no industry regulation… except for transportation cost wiping out the margin advantages of offshoring, that wasn’t a part of the plan…

Industry lobbying kept the ST tires from construction standard upgrade consideration when other tires had the standards changed and raised… the industry argued that the ST tire is not a passenger tire it is for trailer use only and there was very little risk of injury or property damage from their use as already built…
There was no consumer lobby arguing for them to be included in any of the upgrades and the regulators didn’t…

Maybe a little straight talk from the US tire industry would help with their credibility, but I don’t see any credibility coming from the tire builders here…

[JIMNLIN]

lowsuv wrote:
There have been no reports of steel RV wheel failure due to overinflation say to 80 psi .

Dangerous assumption simply because you haven't seen this issue which is actually pretty common out here in the real working world. "MOST" RV folks understand the danger over pressuring and over capacity numbers so it not as big of a problem on a RV web.

Trailer wheels come in pressure and capacity ratings.

JJ gave part of Dexstar trailer wheel capacities/pressure rating. Here are some more .

Dexstar trailer wheel pressure and load ratings

017-347-xx 15x5JJ 5-4.5 3.19 1/2” - 20 60* 0 1820@ 50 psi
017-345-xx 15x6JJ 5-4.5 3.19 1/2” - 20 60* 0 2050@ 65 psi
017-348-xx 15x6JJ 6-5.5 4.27 1/2” - 20 60* 0 2830@ 80 psi

017-325-xx 15x5JJ 5-4.5 3.19 1/2” - 20 60* 0 1820@ 50 psi
017-326-xx 15x6JJ 6-5.5 4.27 1/2” - 20 60* 0 2600@ 75 psi

017-320-xx 15x5JJ 5-4.5 3.19 1/2” - 20 60* 0 1820@ 50 psi
017-321-xx 15x6JJ 6-5.5 4.27 1/2” - 20 60* 0 2600@ 75 psi

017-115-xx 15x5JJ 5-4.5 2.62 1/2” - 20 60* .50 In 1820@ 50 psi
017-116-xx 15x5JJ 6-5.5 3.65 1/2” - 20 60* .50 In 1680@ 50 psi
017-117-xx 15x6JJ 5-4.5 2.62 1/2” - 20 60* .50 In 1820@ 75 psi
017-118-xx 15x6JJ 6-5.5 3.65 1/2” - 20 60* 0 2600@ 75 psi.
Notice the last trailer wheels. Two different wheels with the same 1820 lb capacity but one has a 50 psi and the other has a 75 psi. There are reasons for the difference and its to everyones benefit for them to find out why.

[FastEagle]

I could write in this thread all day and not penetrate the numerous fallacies that have already been posted. So, I’ll just post a few specific observations.

Tire testing: It is a subject that comes up in a long tire thread.

Manufacturers of tires suitable for use on our highways must first accomplish the necessary conditions to achieve permission to display the DOT symbol/acronym on their tires. That will require a series of tests approved by the DOT. That does not mean the DOT will oversee the testing. Initially the tires will be tested by their manufacturer. When they determine their tires are good enough to pass all testing standards they will use a third party testing facility (approved by the DOT). Only a percentage of the final production run will be tested. The paperwork is then submitted to the DOT for approval. Once approved the tires are shipped to wholesalers/retailers for distribution.

The ST tire is, as its name implies, special. Therefore, its DOT approved testing criteria will be tailored to its designed function (s). The ST tire is not designed for the drive or steer axles. It does not have to provide the construction necessary for those positions. The ST tire is just designed to withstand heavier loads than comparably sized tires from other designs.

The best example of the load capacity disparity between the ST tire and a like sized LT tire is quite an eye opener to those that are not very familiar with the various tire designs. The ST235/85R16E has a 3640# load capacity at 80 psi. The LT235/85R16E has a load capacity 3042# at 80 psi. Most often the LT tire will be heavier in weight than the like sized ST tire. That extra weight will most often be in the form of added items - taller treads, extra steel belt, sidewall inserts, etc. - that provide durability which does not add strength.

ST tires are speed restricted to 65 MPH. What does that mean? At 65 MPH it’s providing 100% of it’s load capacity.

Speed ratings are set by the tire’s manufacturer. There is a highly touted LT tire that has a 99 MPH rating when used on it’s designed market and a 75 MPH rating when used on self propelled RVs.

Already too long. Maybe more later.

FastEagle

[jerem0621]

Lowsuv wrote:
nobody can say that there is some brand of number one ST tires .
Consumer Reports tested Maxxis MA-T1 Escapade passenger car tires in their November 2012 issue on page 60 .
Consumer Reports purchases their tires and that issue covered about 62 all season tires and 16 winter tires .
The Maxxis were in the lowest 25 % .
The solution to tire failure is to use the load rating posted on the sidewall of the tire .
If you have a load rating of 1820 # you will gain a significant reserve by upgrading to a tire with 2271 # and so forth .
There have been no reports of steel RV wheel failure due to overinflation say to 80 psi .
You can gain a margin of safety by using a load range E tire and using 80 psi , as the tire sidewall states .
For most that means in a 15 inch RV wheel that the 225 /75 R15 load range E is the highest rating you can get .
A change to 16 inch wheels ( 6 bolts not 5 ) allows one to use the common 245/75R16 load range E tire at 3042 # . Only a few will do this .
Tire Load Rating in pounds trumps brand .

Lowesuv,

This is what I have personally done. I went from 225/75R15 load range c's to 225/75R15 load range E's in Maxxis tire brand. It seems that the only place the Maxxis brand really shines is in ST tire reports and in Motocross (Not an empirical statement, just an observation)

Something That I have personally observed in trailers is the tendency to "curb" the ST tires, people just are not use to pulling for the most part and tend to run over curbs and things.

Is this the cause of the trailer tire blow out's? I am not sure...it certainly can't help.

Do Maxxis give better service to their owners because by the time the owners are aware of the issues with ST tires they have found that Maxxis is the preferred brand? Do this now aware owner take extra care to miss curbs and pay closer attention to air pressure? Maybe.. quite possibly...

Is speed an issue? Maybe...

Here is a picture of a 4 year old Goodyear ST load range E tire. Both this tire and its companion on the passenger (curb?) side of the Fiver have let go. Ironically, there is only one slide on this side of the trailer and there are three on the other. Yet this "light" side is the side that let go.



While this tire letting go is surprising it's companion that let go a few weeks later let go in SPECTACULAR fashion, akin to an 18 wheeler tire blow out with the main tread coming apart as one long piece and the remaining part shredding into many many pieces.

The other two tires, on the heavy side of the trailer, are still there, still functioning, with no hints of letting go.

We have often talked about why the light side of the trailer went and truthfully, we don't know. The trailer was bought used. However, I suspect that the tires were curbed at some time and damaged the bands internally. This is just speculation on my part.

All that said, I think (my opinion, nothing more) the best method for overcoming this situation is to:

#1) have excess load capacity in your tires
#2) Slow down to 55-60 mph.
#3) Maintain your tires, watch pressure, watch for visible changes in the tires shape and replace as needed.

Our good forum Friend JBarca has an EXCELLENT Sticky Worthy post on his ST Tire failure and analysis. His diligence to maintenance found the tire failure before the tires failed on the road.

I highly Recommend EVERY owner of ST tires reads his epic post

ST Tire Failure Analysis (Long- Lots of Pics)

Good luck!

Jeremiah

[Lowsuv]

nobody can say that there is some brand of number one ST tires .
Consumer Reports tested Maxxis MA-T1 Escapade passenger car tires in their November 2012 issue on page 60 .
Consumer Reports purchases their tires and that issue covered about 62 all season tires and 16 winter tires .
The Maxxis were in the lowest 25 % .
The solution to tire failure is to use the load rating posted on the sidewall of the tire .
If you have a load rating of 1820 # you will gain a significant reserve by upgrading to a tire with 2271 # and so forth .
There have been no reports of steel RV wheel failure due to overinflation say to 80 psi .
You can gain a margin of safety by using a load range E tire and using 80 psi , as the tire sidewall states .
For most that means in a 15 inch RV wheel that the 225 /75 R15 load range E is the highest rating you can get .
A change to 16 inch wheels ( 6 bolts not 5 ) allows one to use the common 245/75R16 load range E tire at 3042 # . Only a few will do this .
Tire Load Rating in pounds trumps brand .