Negotiating TT price - adding a TT to the fleet.

[BPRescue]

Hi All.
I guess this will be long... Sorry, I can be chatty sometimes...

I have been considering adding to the fleet for a few years, and now getting ready to pull the trigger. I have a PUP with a boat loader for my aluminum boat which gets me wherever I want to go in terms of terrain, so I can get well away from the crowds, setup off grade, etc. It does take time to setup, including prep where I have to open it pre trip, so it has hindered many quick weekend trips, or even long trips where facilities would be nice. So, I have been looking to expand and while you will never get a TT where I go with the PUP, I still plan on doing the boondocking thing on the endless primitive roads here is AZ. I will clearly visit more campgrounds, including the full hookup thing as well, but I don't want to be limited and desire something that can handle fairly rough dirt roads.

This summer I decided to do a test run on a TT and rented a 2016 Jayco 23MBH for 10 days in Jackson and Yellowstone. I did the full hookup thing, as well as boondocking. My 2015 Tundra towed it beautifully and it did not feel much different than my boat in terms of length. I have a TRD Pro, so even with the equalizer, I did see some dip and will invest in air bags. But, this TT passed all my tests with flying colors and where I understand it will limit my true backcountry sites, I won't be limited to just pavement or nice graded gravel roads either.

I have narrowed my choices down to 2 TT's which are both at the top of my limit in 23' model length (for navigability). The first is the Jayco Jay Feather 23BHM, and the second is the Outdoors RV Black Rock 23BKS with the off road package. BTW, we also have two kids, so the bunk beds are perfect as well and the kids love them.

For the Jayco, both my wife and I like the floor plan. I don't know the reason, but they changed it a bit from the 23MBH I rented with a few items being the orientation of the toilet, no sunroof in the living area, and lack of windows on the side of the slide out. Storage is very limited on this, especially if I integrate the boat, or add an inflatable, but it is doable. She likes this better than the Outdoors RV because the vanity is outside the bathroom, and the Murphy bed allows extra usable space up or down. The negative for me other than the small items I mentioned is the smaller water tanks, and it is not as tough as the Outdoors RV, including the beefed up suspension, frame and build.

The Outdoors RV while I have not met one in person yet, appears to be a much stronger build with the off road suspension, frame and wall construction. The cabinets are better as well with pocket holes rather than staples. (though I don't know if that means the cabinet frames, or boxes themselves, so I will need to verify when I see them in person). I like the floor plan and while the bed is permanent, the wall will likely remove that "great room" type feel my wife likes. I think I like the materials are better, but we will see, when I "see" it in person. The wife does not like the floorplan as much as the Jayco, with the vanity being a big part of that. For me though, this thing adds many bonus points because of it's build. The frame is stronger, suspension allows for more travel with shocks, better ratings on the tires, larger tanks, better insulation, storage, etc. Again without seeing it, this is my favorite based on its capabilities off the beaten path, though I don't like that it is almost a foot taller. If I do consider designing a boat loader for my aluminum like I did on my PUP, that extra height might be an issue. I may consider a nice inflatable though, which reminds me there is much more storage on the Outdoors RV. This is a little heavier than the Jayco, but both are within my tow limits on the Tundra including payload of passengers, tongue weight, etc.

Anyway, my real question here is on how to negotiate price on these. In the last 25 years, I have only paid above invoice for two vehicles being an M3, and my TRD Pro. Both were highly sought after and I had the M3 built as a surprise Xmas gift for my wife, so there was not as much wiggle room as normal. Regardless, in danger of retaining my modesty, I have mastered negotiations on vehicles where I always get a very good deal. At the same time, invoice pricing, holdback and other info is readily available on the internet, so it's just a matter of brining in the laptop with all data gathered, supportin documentation printed, and letting the dealership know if they won't give me the price I know they can, I will go to another dealer. Nowadays I have moved onto fleet sales as that is much easier. Anyway, this is a little different being it's a camper and my last experience was over 15 years ago. The Jayco has just a few dealers in my state, and the Outdoors RV just one. So, I lose a little power there. I may increase it a bit because even if I decide the Outdoors RV, they will think they are pitted against the Jayco with the lower price point, and of course I won't really care about the stronger components of the Outdoors RV. 🙂 Just like a car, they will think I can easily do without it...

That said, what are you guys seeing on negotiations? Where does the power come from? Is there accurate invoice pricing available? We are at the end of model year here, so that will help, but I would like a better grip than that...

Thanks all.

[rbpru]

I also never buy on the first trip. It is far to easy to get caught up in the excitement and happy thinking of the moment, which may not look so rosy after a good nights sleep.

We are talking big bucks and impulse buys can be very costly.

Understanding what you really want and what is added fluff you can live without is a key factor. For example, I do not need those multi-colored LED lamps under my awning. However, I do need a decent WD hitch properly set up.

[Ron3rd]

"When it came time to actually do the sales paperwork, the dealer attempted to sneak in an extra $2000 into the price (making it $34,500, a price never once discussed by either side) under the guise of a typo."

Must be a coincidence but the exact same thing happened to me after we agreed on the deal and we came time to pick the trailer up 2 weeks later. The $3500 Extended Warranty that I had declined prior, "magically appeared" on the sales contract when they printed it out. They said, "gee, how did that happen?"

[Ron3rd]

rbpru wrote:
You can rest assured that no matter how good a deal you managed, someone bought it cheaper and someone paid more.

My approach is to tell the sale man the price is the out the door price and is the number that goes on the check. I do not care how they want to figure in the dealer's various fees and charges but I only bring one check, the rest comes out of their pocket.

The price is easy, I can afford a certain amount. Period, end of statement. If they will not sell the TT to me for that, I move on. If my price is way off I will know after a few dealer turn me down.

Make sure the price include all the things you need, including the hitch, the hitch mounting and adjustment, battery, LP tanks and a thorough walk through.

Buying a TT is not a race and sometimes the cheapest deal is not the best. Also remember Floor Plan remains when all else is forgotten.

Good Luck,

Sounds like you and I went to the same School of Negotiating.

I ALWAYS dictate the price I am paying based on my research. If the dealer declines my offer, I politely thank them for their time and move on to the next. I also leave my phone number indicating that if they change their mind, to please give me a call. One of two things ALWAYS happens; I either find a dealer to accept my offer or the other dealer calls me back with a "change of heart".

Furthermore, I don't play games. I'm not interested in wasting their time or mine.

[rbritton]

We just bought an 2017 Outdoors RV Timber Ridge 25RDS (Mountain Series) a month ago, so maybe our experience could be of some interest. We settled on this particular make and model after multiple years of visiting various RV shows, and it was based on a few factors:

1. Price. Four-season use was a requirement, and this was one of the mid/lower-priced ones in that category.
2. Build Quality. Many other makes we looked at had the appearance of corners being cut -- trim not extending all of the way to the edges, nailing up of the wall panels through the wall paper, ceiling joint strips popping out, cheap-looking countertop materials, etc.
3. Appearance. The finishings in this manufacturer's trailers look very nice and, when seen in person, look like they'll hold up better to use than some others we've seen.
4. Weight. This is the heaviest dry weight I can tow while still having enough capacity to fill it with cargo.

The Outdoors RV trailers have a number of options available and various dealers order different ones standard. My personal #1 requirement was the slidetopper awning. Since we intend to use this when there may be stuff falling on the top (e.g., snow, rain, tree debris, etc), I felt that would help a lot with its weather resistance. My #2 was the off-road suspension, which this particular trailer did not have. I later bought the same MorRyde CRE3000 (~$225 including the wet bolt upgrade) that the manufacturer uses as the upgrade option and put it on myself. We do not have the larger wheels, but I think the equalizer provides most of the benefit of that option.

Finally I'll cover the negotiation process: The MSRP was $43,659 and the dealer was asking $36,000. For a ballpark dealer invoice, we guessed it to be around $26,000-27,000. Our initial offer was $31,000. After some back-and-forth we were at $32,000 and the dealer was at $34,000. We did a final offer at $32,500, and the dealer came down to $33,000. We walked out. Later that night we got a call saying they'd meet the $32,500. I feel we probably could've got them to $32,000, but I can live with the extra $500.

When it came time to actually do the sales paperwork, the dealer attempted to sneak in an extra $2000 into the price (making it $34,500, a price never once discussed by either side) under the guise of a typo. We caught it (maybe we should have left then) and forced them to correct it. The trailer was ready for pick up the following week.

[2012Coleman]

jim1521 wrote:
Here you go....

Dealer Invoice

This is a joke - doing simple math, you can find the percentage of the invoice price vs. msrp. The very first one I calculated was .6 percent.

Do you really think you can run a huge business at 6 percent profit margin? Invoice pricing is a hoax.

[Community Alumni]

jim1521 wrote:
Here you go....

Dealer Invoice

This site has very few, if any, real invoice prices. The site is full of theoretical invoice prices. The site takes the MSRP, applies a 31 percent discount, and calls it the invoice. The real invoice price for RVs are next to impossible to find unless you have connections with a dealer.

[rbpru]

You can rest assured that no matter how good a deal you managed, someone bought it cheaper and someone paid more.

My approach is to tell the sale man the price is the out the door price and is the number that goes on the check. I do not care how they want to figure in the dealer's various fees and charges but I only bring one check, the rest comes out of their pocket.

The price is easy, I can afford a certain amount. Period, end of statement. If they will not sell the TT to me for that, I move on. If my price is way off I will know after a few dealer turn me down.

Make sure the price include all the things you need, including the hitch, the hitch mounting and adjustment, battery, LP tanks and a thorough walk through.

Buying a TT is not a race and sometimes the cheapest deal is not the best. Also remember Floor Plan remains when all else is forgotten.

Good Luck,

[OutdoorPhotogra]

Crist had their Outdoors RVs at the RV show in Phoenix in the Spring. I was impressed with frames. I really wanted an Outdoors RV or Northwood but for now going a different route. I'll be back for next RV.

We too were PUP campers and it's hard to match space but the wife will be happy in general with facilities in TT compared to PUP. I suggest having the kids brush their teeth in the kitchen sink. I see the value of the vanity outside the bathroom but just too much jump in quality for someone who likes to offroad.

I'll be boondocking in AZ which is why I was drawn to the Outdoors RV models.

[Vintage465]

I have an answer to one question and advise..........The cabinets faces in my Outdoors RV are constructed with either alder or poplar overlaid with the vinyl veneer. The joints are all pocketed and screwed together but I don't think they are glued. The structure for the dinette and the bed is either pine or doug-fir and put together in the usual wide crowned staple across the joint fashion. To be perfectly honest about the hole trailer, construction method of cross stapling wood joints to build interior structure for dinettes and bed frames is the only thing that I think is below standard for a trailer of this caliber. I suppose since it has such a robust frame and great suspension that it will hold up better than say a wood framed rig or an ultra light that is tweaking and twisting down the road or bouncing around on dirt roads. And now the advise; Your wife likes the floor plan in the Jayco? Why is there still a discussion....Happy Wife, Happy Life!

[normal_dave]

Outdoors RV, based on construction, there is a major difference, watch their video.

As far as dealing, you'll need to consider a road trip, best to get to Pendleton, OR after having a phone conversation with Thompson RV. Make it a vacation. On your Black Rock, also look at the Timber Ridge 23DBS, (exact same body as the Black Rock 23BKS). FWIW, Thompson orders every Timber Ridge with the X4 offroad pack and mountain storage system. Great folks, and lots of long distance buyers.

Crist RV in Mesa, has a new 2016 Creek Side 23DBS, again identical body. ORV re-aligned models for 2017, and the Creekside 23DBS became Timber Ridge 23DBS. Findlay in Las Vegas, probably could order whatever you wanted. ORV's are built by model runs, only certain times of the year.

Tundra, great truck, but read this funny (but serious and factual) post. Note it is in the Outdoors RV owners sub-forum, great resource, yes on that "other" rv site.
ORV cost me $ 53K!

[K-9_HANDLER]

Sounds like u know already how to play the game and play it well. And are just looking for bottom line help on the model u want. I found these 23bks models on rv trader if it helps for comparison. I like playing the game to and have no problem walking out the door.

https://www.rvtrader.com/New-And-Used-Outdoors-Rv-Black-Rock-23BKS-Travel-Trailer-For-Sale-On-RV-Trader/search-results?category=Travel%20Trailer&sort=featured%3Aasc&radius=150&layoutView=listView&make=Outdoors%20Rv&model=Black%20Rock%2023BKS&

[Ralph_Cramden]

BadgerMcAdams wrote:

Mike Up wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:

jim1521 wrote:
Here you go....

Dealer Invoice

That link is not a very accurate source. If it is I did pretty good by paying over $3K less than the dealers invoice on our 2017 Rockwood.

I did a lot of research and requested a lot of quotes online to order our current unit. Then I simply called the closest dealer for the brand, told them what I wanted and was willing to pay. It was very much a take it or leave it proposition. They took it and I don't think I left much on the table if anything. Get a quote from RVW or some of the other self proclaimed wholesalers if they carry the brand. In reality they are just dealers the same as any other dealer. Plenty of other dealers in the same geographical market will match and often beat their prices.

Agreed, the dealer cost seems really high compared to what people are actually paying.

That's how the dealer makes you THINK you are getting something over on them 😉

And its amazing how many people take the bait.

"Special Show pricing" = At least $1K more than I could of purchased for from off the dealers lot. Someone pays for floor space at the expo or convention center and its not cheap. Its not the dealer who pays for it.

"MSRP" = One is born every minute, here comes one now, lets see if we can get him to pay MSRP or close to it. Better yet lets print out a fake invoice with an MSRP we pulled from thin air, and let it lay in the trailer. We can also plaster it all over the net.

"Dealer Invoice" = Harder to get info than the access code to the nuclear football. Hint...take the accurate MSRP as reported by the manufacturer, if you can find it. Deduct 30% then deduct another 25% from that number. You're now in the ballpark within 5% one way or the other.

Our 2017 Rockwood Roo with options was listed at $31K by Rockwood. We paid $19K out the door, a straight cash deal with no trade. I have met three other 23WS owners at the campground. None had as many factory options. Two were purchased from the same dealer. They paid $24K, $25.5K, and the third who purchased from RVW paid 22K plus took the hit with their financing arrangement that their price is always dependent on.

[DutchmenSport]

As with any negotiation, you have a price figure you cannot exceed. They have a price figure they cannot go under. Take their sale price, offer $20,000 less, see what they say! Yea, its a game, tit-for-tat, back and forth. When they exceed your highest, you simply walk. If they come in below your highest amount, take it! The secret is to not be afraid to walk out during negotiations, and stick to it.

[BadgerMcAdams]

Mike Up wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:

jim1521 wrote:
Here you go....

Dealer Invoice

That link is not a very accurate source. If it is I did pretty good by paying over $3K less than the dealers invoice on our 2017 Rockwood.

I did a lot of research and requested a lot of quotes online to order our current unit. Then I simply called the closest dealer for the brand, told them what I wanted and was willing to pay. It was very much a take it or leave it proposition. They took it and I don't think I left much on the table if anything. Get a quote from RVW or some of the other self proclaimed wholesalers if they carry the brand. In reality they are just dealers the same as any other dealer. Plenty of other dealers in the same geographical market will match and often beat their prices.

Agreed, the dealer cost seems really high compared to what people are actually paying.

That's how the dealer makes you THINK you are getting something over on them 😉