Quieter alternatives for propane furnace in extreme cold

[EsTC]

After considering all of my options between trailer, sprinter van, etc., I determined that a TC works best for my purpose which is travelling to, and boondocking in, remote areas. Several areas that I am considering travelling to in the winter are in northern Canada where the temperature may reach 0 Fahrenheit. I must have working water system in these trips, which is doable with a propane furnace after some additions and modifications. I am open to buy any lightweight short bed camper such as Northern Lite 8-11SP, or Wolf Creek 850, or Lance 865.
The problem is that DW sleeps very lightly at nights and the propane furnace noise will be a deal breaker (or even non-starter) for her. I am looking for alternatives to propane furnace. I am open to replace the propane furnace with more than one appliance if needed, but the one or more appliance must heat the basement, camper, and water. What are my alternatives.
So far Alde system sounds like a good option. But I am unsure about how much and what kind of challenge should I expect if I want to replace a propane furnace with an Alde system.
Another good option is a Truma Combi. Again I am unsure about the challenges and complications I must expect. Although the first challenge is to find a Truma Combi.
Another option is to replace the propane furnace with an Aitronic D2 which will heat the camper and basement, and buy a separate water heater. Airtronic D2 is a fantastic heater, but this route requires buying two appliances and I am yet to find an efficient, lightweight, stand-alone water heater.
Yet another option is to heat the camper using Mr. Buddy, Plat Cat, or panel heaters and then use a few fans to push warm air into the basement. The problem here is I still need to find an efficient, lightweight, stand-alone water heater. Moreover, I am not sure whether pushing warm air with fans into the basement will keep water tanks from freezing in extreme cold that we will be in (I have considered adding thermostat-equipped light bulbs or small electric heaters or pads close to, or around, tanks, but found that unrealistic and prone to failure given the complexity of adding several of these and their electricity consumption).

If you have any idea about any of these or something different that may direct me to a solution I have not thought about, please share it with me. Thanks!

[Grit_dog]

"Thanks for sharing several great points and suggestions. Diesel heaters are fantastic. I have a gas truck, and having a diesel heater means that I will need to carry a different type of fuel, but that's fine if I reach the conclusion that Diesel heater is the way to go.
As for the inverter generator, if I want to solely rely on it and the electric heaters, I will need three gallons per day to feed a Honda 2200 (which is the smallest generator that may be able to handle the needs). For 7 to 10 days I will need 20 to 30 gallons of gas, and I need to carry some more just in case. That will be a lot of gas to carry, but is possible for when I am close to a gas station which are not abundant in northern Canada.
You are so right about cracking windows not being a realistic option to do all the time in subzero (f) deg.
You are also so right about human being adapted to what happens around her, including the noise. I may give this a chance, and look at other (costly) solutions only if it fails."

Stop for a minute and think about what you're trying to accomplish here.
It appears you understand the unique needs to be prepared to camp in sub zero temps, but you'll need to accept that whatever option(s) you choose, you'll need to burn some real fuel. Besides, it'll be dark most of the day so you're burning lights alot more too.
Packing 3 people in a can in the dead of winter and dealing with moisture and heat and running water is a unique challenge.
Look at your battery situation too. I'd be stacking 4 6Vs in that thing and a big @ss converter to charge them so that you don't need to run the genny 24/7. Then figure out how to heat the place with the least amount of fuel and power used.
Propane is not the answer. You'll probably blow through a 20lb bottle a day in those temps with a forced air furnace.
Gas powering a generator to power at least 2 electric heaters 24/7 (where do you even put them conveniently) is not the answer. Yes IF you have shore power, maybe, yes if it's for occasional use, yes if its warmer, but you don't have any of those things.
The answer is diesel, IMO. Packs the most btus per volume of common fuels.

Then figure out your water and tank heat situation.

[Grit_dog]

2oldman wrote:
Is this an ad for those heating systems?

Are you being nosy?

[Kayteg1]

Couple notes to reply above
-so called diesel heaters also have gasoline version. I am still considering separate tank for heater, who mounted in compartment will not be subject to gelled diesel in arctic temperatures.
- my 1000W inverter generator take a cup of gas per hr when on lower load. I never camp in temperatures below 0F, but had been in -25F and it was not fun. The Honda generator would not start in those temperatures.
So I think for such low temperatures, you need to keep generator in warm place and start it early in the evening to avoid bad surprises.
Those small generators also have small gas tanks, so making it extended run would be my priority.
Also at such low temperatures propane evaporation comes to drizzle and batteries start to choke.

[EsTC]

Thanks for all the great comments!

jimh425 wrote:
[...]
I find the propane furnace fine, but I do a few things. 1)Turn down the thermostat at night. We usually have it at 60. 2)Put Reflectix in all of the compartments, under the bed, and in all windows and skylights. We remove the Reflectix from windows/skylights during the day. 3)Have a warm cover. We use down.
[...]

Thanks! If we decide to keep the propane furnace, which is becoming increasingly likely, this suggestions will be very useful.

Reality Check wrote:
Ear plugs...
[...]
To answer the question about forcing the heat into the basement, our AF (and others no doubt) use nothing more than a small fan that circulates a fraction of the room air.

The propane heater is extremely quiet and we leave it on all year.
[...]

Thanks! Ear plug looks like a cheap and easy option but it blocks all the sounds out there which is not always desirable in the wild nature. In addition, we have a 3 year old daughter and we need to keep our ears open and alert at nights.
Your comments about quiet propane heater is interesting. Is it a furnace? What brand? I think Suburban and Dometic/Atwood are two mostly used brands and there are several other brands that are not as much used. Maybe some of them are quieter than the others. If that happens to be the case, it's great to know which one is the quietest.

joerg68 wrote:
Don't Cirrus campers come with an Alde heater from the factory?

Grit dog wrote:

joerg68 wrote:
Don't Cirrus campers come with an Alde heater from the factory?

That was going to be my suggestion. Also fits the OPs size /use requirements as good as any, maybe better.

Thanks for your comments! Cirrus campers come with Alde which is good, but they come with many design flaws too. Looking at how their camper models evolved during the last few years, it appears to me that Cirrus is still experimenting with its designs and is still in the try and error stage of product development. Moreover, Cirrus models are currently limited to 620 (a very small camper without shower) and 820 (a relatively heavy camper which comes standard with a lot of features that I have to pay for and then omit.) I am waiting for Cirrus’ next model, hoping that it will be something worthy of consideration size-wise and quality-wise.

cewillis wrote:
Platinum cat is definitely my choice.

Have you personally tried, or saw somebody trying, Plat Cat in the extreme cold? I agree that Plat Cat is one of the best heating options for a camper. That being said, I am a bit skeptical about how efficient is the duct in venting CO. After all catalytic heaters do not one furnace or heating place from which one can vent out all the CO. Furthermore, venting out CO will inadvertently vent some heat too, hence my question about whether you tried it in the extreme cold.

Geewizard wrote:
You're going to experience temps WAY below 0 F where you want to go. And a whole lot of other issues will come up other than water. Even starting a generator could be an issue.

Where do you live now and what's your experience with winter camping of any type?

Definitely right! Those places can easily reach -60 F or lower at times but we will pan to avoid those temperatures or anything below -15 F. I have camped in subzero (F) temperatures in the mountains, but not with a family. I live in Appalachian area now, but lived and have family in ON, Canada.

time2roll wrote:
[...]Assuming you have power to plug in you can add heat pads to the water system to prevent freezing. www.ultraheat.com I added a water circulating pump to prevent freeze up.

I won't have power to plug in, but UltraHeat is something that I will consider. Thanks!

ndrorder wrote:
The water heater is easy. Just turn it off when sleeping and the burner will not be heard. If heating water via electricity, in time the element will make noise as it begins to corrode. Again, the solution is to turn it off at bedtime.
[...]electric options for a furnace [...] a 1500w portable electric oil radiator heaters and fans [...] I feel her pain.
Learning to sleep with low level music on all night [...].

A very helpful comment! Oil radiators sound like a good choice, though 1500W is though to provide without access to electricity. I bet my wife will find music much more appealing than earplug, so will I.

rtk2 wrote:
You will encounter temperature far below zero Fahrenheit. Right now, large portions of Canadian Prairies are below minus 40. Unless you have electric plugin power, you will not have enough propane or battery capacity. Solar power will also be almost zero with low sun angles, short days and snow cover. Even if you are able to keep the interior heated, your water system will freeze solid. Also, you will not find many places to refill your water tank or to dump the sewage. I live on the Prairies, it is extremely harsh during winter.

Having lived in Prairies and being in this forum, you must have a lot of knowledge about dealing with extreme cold weather in campers/RVs. I agree with what you said. We will plan to avoid any temperature below -15 F (although I understand that we should be prepared for that, because things will not always follow our plans). Technically it is possible to have a camper with working water system in extreme cold and there are a few trip reports of campers who used their water systems in weeks-long trips in such temperatures, but I agree and understand that it is very challenging, and things can easily go wrong.

ajriding wrote:
The little cheapo china diesel heaters [...]
a small inverter generator, a quiet one, located a few feet away and run an electric heater or two, the 2nd being for basement, and maybe an electric bed warmer.
The Buddy heaters do just put a lot of moisture into the air and at zero cracking windows is not as ideal as it is at 50.
Otherwise the propane furnace that does have a loud fan is a really good heater. [...] Eventually anyone will get used to normal sounds. [...]

Thanks for sharing several great points and suggestions. Diesel heaters are fantastic. I have a gas truck, and having a diesel heater means that I will need to carry a different type of fuel, but that's fine if I reach the conclusion that Diesel heater is the way to go.
As for the inverter generator, if I want to solely rely on it and the electric heaters, I will need three gallons per day to feed a Honda 2200 (which is the smallest generator that may be able to handle the needs). For 7 to 10 days I will need 20 to 30 gallons of gas, and I need to carry some more just in case. That will be a lot of gas to carry, but is possible for when I am close to a gas station which are not abundant in northern Canada.
You are so right about cracking windows not being a realistic option to do all the time in subzero (f) deg.
You are also so right about human being adapted to what happens around her, including the noise. I may give this a chance, and look at other (costly) solutions only if it fails.

Grit dog wrote:
[…]
Heck if buying brand new maybe you could get the propane furnace deleted?

I think some camper manufacturers will accept to do that. Even if they don’t, I can remove and sell the furnace. Thanks for your comment!

2oldman wrote:
Is this an ad for those heating systems?

That was not my intention.

kohldad wrote:
Look into the Cirrus or Bundatec camper with the alde heat. I would not want to try and rework those type systems into a camper that came with a standard furnace.
[…]

Great suggestions! Thanks! I explained a little bit about my stance on Cirrus campers. I had researched BunduTec campers am strongly considering the Roadrunner. I believe BunduTec does not use Alde, but Truma Combi which is great. There are a few things about BunduTec that I could not figure out. For example, what is the main material that they build the camper from? Is it wood like Northstar (given BunduTec connections to Northstar)? What is their business model? Do they only manufacture campers with pre-designed floor plans that they have in their websites? Or do they accept orders with customized floor plans and options? I know I can get the answers by contacting BunduTec, but did not do so yet. Maybe a reason that stopped me from contacting them was several negative stories or comments that I read from people who owned a BunduTec camper. Given that BunduTec is not a mainstream brand, it’s difficult to evaluate the quality of its make using limited reviews and experiences that are shared on the internet.

rexlion wrote:
Propex heaters are another quiet type.

I was not familiar with Propex heaters. It looks like a potentially good option. Thanks for sharing this!

free radical wrote:

I havent seen any TC rated for winter camping in Canada.
I sugest you build your own
See Everlanders chanel on YT

You are right. TCs are not readily rated for winter camping in Canada. That's why extensive modification, or building a new camper, is required. I hope to be able to build what I need by modifying an available model.

[free_radical]

ajriding wrote:
The little cheapo china diesel heaters will be quieter and use less electricity. There is an issue with a clicking noise with the fuel pump unless you can mount the pump somewhere where it cannot be heard. Click is similar to the piezo ignition click of a furnace.
The down side is these heaters will need cleaning from time to time.

.

Ive heard that burning jar of Kerosene once in a while cleans it nicely

[free_radical]

EsTC wrote:
After considering all of my options between trailer, sprinter van, etc., I determined that a TC works best for my purpose which is travelling to, and boondocking in, remote areas. Several areas that I am considering travelling to in the winter are in northern Canada where the temperature may reach 0 Fahrenheit. I must have working water system in these trips, which is doable with a propane furnace after some additions and modifications. I am open to buy any lightweight short bed camper such as Northern Lite 8-11SP, or Wolf Creek 850, or Lance 865.
The problem is that DW sleeps very lightly at nights and the propane furnace noise will be a deal breaker (or even non-starter) for her. I am looking for alternatives to propane furnace. I am open to replace the propane furnace with more than one appliance if needed, but the one or more appliance must heat the basement, camper, and water. What are my alternatives.
So far Alde system sounds like a good option. But I am unsure about how much and what kind of challenge should I expect if I want to replace a propane furnace with an Alde system.
Another good option is a Truma Combi. Again I am unsure about the challenges and complications I must expect. Although the first challenge is to find a Truma Combi.
Another option is to replace the propane furnace with an Aitronic D2 which will heat the camper and basement, and buy a separate water heater. Airtronic D2 is a fantastic heater, but this route requires buying two appliances and I am yet to find an efficient, lightweight, stand-alone water heater.
Yet another option is to heat the camper using Mr. Buddy, Plat Cat, or panel heaters and then use a few fans to push warm air into the basement. The problem here is I still need to find an efficient, lightweight, stand-alone water heater. Moreover, I am not sure whether pushing warm air with fans into the basement will keep water tanks from freezing in extreme cold that we will be in (I have considered adding thermostat-equipped light bulbs or small electric heaters or pads close to, or around, tanks, but found that unrealistic and prone to failure given the complexity of adding several of these and their electricity consumption).

If you have any idea about any of these or something different that may direct me to a solution I have not thought about, please share it with me. Thanks!

I havent seen any TC rated for winter camping in Canada.
I sugest you build your own
See Everlanders chanel on YT

[rexlion]

Propex heaters are another quiet type.

[kohldad]

Look into the Cirrus or Bundatec camper with the alde heat. I would not want to try and rework those type systems into a camper that came with a standard furnace.

If you use a non-vented heater that burns propane, not only will you have to worry about CO poisonings, but you will also have high moisture problems.

[2oldman]

Is this an ad for those heating systems?

[Grit_dog]

Or like aj said look into the little diesel heaters.
Although I wouldn’t want to buy a new camper and go to modifying it.
Heck if buying brand new maybe you could get the propane furnace deleted?

[Grit_dog]

joerg68 wrote:
Don't Cirrus campers come with an Alde heater from the factory?

That was going to be my suggestion. Also fits the OPs size /use requirements as good as any, maybe better.

[ajriding]

The little cheapo china diesel heaters will be quieter and use less electricity. There is an issue with a clicking noise with the fuel pump unless you can mount the pump somewhere where it cannot be heard. Click is similar to the piezo ignition click of a furnace.
The down side is these heaters will need cleaning from time to time.

The best solution is a small inverter generator, a quiet one, located a few feet away and run an electric heater or two, the 2nd being for basement, and maybe an electric bed warmer.

Otherwise the propane furnace that does have a loud fan is a really good heater. It does use a lot of electricity for the fan, and at zero deg it would run all the time almost, so with long winter nights you would need some amp hours for sure.

The Buddy heaters do just put a lot of moisture into the air and at zero cracking windows is not as ideal as it is at 50.

Eventually anyone will get used to normal sounds. I never did with the heater as I did not run it enough to get used to it, but every night all the time.... well thats your call alone.

I would explore the ear plugs route and try it at home before looking at expensive solutions each with their own downsides...

[rtk2]

You will encounter temperature far below zero Fahrenheit. Right now, large portions of Canadian Prairies are below minus 40. Unless you have electric plugin power, you will not have enough propane or battery capacity. Solar power will also be almost zero with low sun angles, short days and snow cover. Even if you are able to keep the interior heated, your water system will freeze solid. Also, you will not find many places to refill your water tank or to dump the sewage. I live on the Prairies, it is extremely harsh during winter.

[ndrorder]

The water heater is easy. Just turn it off when sleeping and the burner will not be heard. If heating water via electricity, in time the element will make noise as it begins to corrode. Again, the solution is to turn it off at bedtime.

Boondocking in remote areas essentialy means no electric without a generator. If willing to suffer a remote generator or have electric, there are electric options for a furnace. In the small confines of a TC, a 1500w portable electric oil radiator heaters and fans can be quiet and very effective. Otherwise, anything with a burner or a fan will be heard at startup. I even wake up when I hear the little burner on the fridge start. I feel her pain.

Learning to sleep with low level music on all night has helped the burner, fan, and other appliance noises to be less noticeable.

[time2roll]

Also consider a heated mattress pad to allow the furnace or other system to run at a bare minimum. Unless vented the catalytic heaters produce unwanted moisture too. Assuming you have power to plug in you can add heat pads to the water system to prevent freezing. www.ultraheat.com I added a water circulating pump to prevent freeze up.