Ram Eco-Diesel vs F150 2.7 TT - Davis Dam

[Hybridhunter]

You just know it's not gonna be close!

So which is better? Horsepower or torque lol.
(The answer is both, apparently.)

[RoyJ]

DirtyOil wrote:

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.

And just where do those examples apply on a modern jetliner? What about a Saturn V rocket? A cruise missile?

The problem with using torque is that many massive objects can move without torque. But power is universal within well, the universe.

Newton tells us Power = Force x Velocity.

I can apply it to any subject in motion from an oil tanker to the space shuttle. While torque is only applicable to rotating objects. It's a MEAN of producing power, via an important term *rpm*. But torque by itself is not power.

If I hang myself on a 100' bar I'm generating 20,000 lb-ft all day long. But I'm doing jack all... 20,000 * 0 rpm / 5252 = 0 hp.

[RoyJ]

NinerBikes wrote:
HP does not remain constant when you run it through the friction and losses of a gear box. Normally 15 to 18% loss.

Now you're just nit picking; I think you knew exactly the point I was trying to make.

And to nit-pick you further, a simple planetary gear doesn't lose anywhere near 15 - 15%.

A full transmission, with 3 planetary gear sets, an intermediate shaft, 3 - 5 wet clutch packs, plus a hydraulic pump, is around 18%.

[goducks10]

Just got my latest Trailer Life mag. They did a test of a Ram 1500 Ed and a Lance 1995 TT. Lance is 9'9"Hx8'x23'9". Weighed 4860lbs.

The Ram ED has 3.92 gears and is the Outdoorsman model. It got 22mpg solo and 12.6mpg towing. About the same as an Eco Ford.

[NinerBikes]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

Neglecting wind resistance, the Nascar engine would pull the rig exactly 2.43 times faster.

Here's a way to think about it, if the Nascar V8 makes 850 hp at 9000 rpm (496 lb-ft torque), and I bolted a 5:1 planetary gearset onto the bellhousing, then I would magically turn it into an 850 hp @ 1800 rpm, 2480 lb-ft @ 1800 engine.

If I bolted that onto the Mack's transmission, you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from a highly modified Cat C15, aside from the sound...

See, torque can be manipulated by gearing, while hp ALWAYS stays constant.

The only reason a Big Rig uses low revving diesel instead of high revving gasoline V8s is due to fuel economy and longevity. That Nascar engine would last 500 miles and get 1 mpg pulling a semi trailer.

^^^^^^^^^^^ should be a sticky.

HP does not remain constant when you run it through the friction and losses of a gear box. Normally 15 to 18% loss. You end up with 82 to 85% of your HP left once run through a gear box. Anyone that's ridden a mountain bike with a Rohloff gearbox up hill, racing, can tell you all about the losses, they are huge.

We are talking tow vehicles here, not racing motors, so racing motors and racing HP and racing torque numbers are unwarranted in this thread. Towing a trailer is doing work. When you want work done, you buy a diesel motor to get the heavy work done efficiently.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

RoyJ wrote:

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

Neglecting wind resistance, the Nascar engine would pull the rig exactly 2.43 times faster.

Here's a way to think about it, if the Nascar V8 makes 850 hp at 9000 rpm (496 lb-ft torque), and I bolted a 5:1 planetary gearset onto the bellhousing, then I would magically turn it into an 850 hp @ 1800 rpm, 2480 lb-ft @ 1800 engine.

If I bolted that onto the Mack's transmission, you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from a highly modified Cat C15, aside from the sound...

See, torque can be manipulated by gearing, while hp ALWAYS stays constant.

The only reason a Big Rig uses low revving diesel instead of high revving gasoline V8s is due to fuel economy and longevity. That Nascar engine would last 500 miles and get 1 mpg pulling a semi trailer.

^^^^^^^^^^^ should be a sticky.

[DirtyOil]

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.

[RoyJ]

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

Neglecting wind resistance, the Nascar engine would pull the rig exactly 2.43 times faster.

Here's a way to think about it, if the Nascar V8 makes 850 hp at 9000 rpm (496 lb-ft torque), and I bolted a 5:1 planetary gearset onto the bellhousing, then I would magically turn it into an 850 hp @ 1800 rpm, 2480 lb-ft @ 1800 engine.

If I bolted that onto the Mack's transmission, you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from a highly modified Cat C15, aside from the sound...

See, torque can be manipulated by gearing, while hp ALWAYS stays constant.

The only reason a Big Rig uses low revving diesel instead of high revving gasoline V8s is due to fuel economy and longevity. That Nascar engine would last 500 miles and get 1 mpg pulling a semi trailer.

[RoyJ]

DirtyOil wrote:

Torque is simply a method of producing power. I cannot stress this enough.

The shove in the seat you feel is due to power. Power that is produced by torque. But you didn't "feel" torque

what I said... torque is what put you there ... not HP!

If it makes you feel better, then sure.

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

[NinerBikes]

For towing something about HALF the rated tow capacity, say 4000 pounds, with a large frontal area causing a lot of drag, I will always take the torque of a turbo diesel for towing over a gas motor.

As for a 5th wheel and towing with an eco diesel... have at it, I wouldn't even bother. Nor would I go much over 25 feet with an ultra light travel trailer. YMMV, with the mountains and gusts of winds in canyons out west here, that is where I draw my personal limits.

[jerem0621]

I test drove an EcoDiesel last Saturday. Overall, nice ride. The power was not too bad. It was very comparable to the 2010 2v 4.6 F150 I also test drove. (Similar HP) I also test drove a Pentastar Ram and could very much feel those extra 65 horses empty, I am sure they are also evident while towing a load.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[wilber1]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

If I build an engine that puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque and limit the RPM to 1000 how much HP does it produce

HP = t x RPM/5252

Horse power of your engine Turtle is 190.4hp. 🙂

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Now answer the second part of the question.

How well would a 1000 ft/lb 190 HP engine do in a TV towing lets say a 15K 5er up a 7% grade?

It would do really well, just not very fast.

Maybe it's ok for some but sub 30mph would not be my definition of "really well." :E If that's the case my 65 HP tractor would make a pretty good TV. :B

In some ways it would make a good TV but we can carry any example to an extreme. Personally I put a premium on power in the 1500 to 3000 RPM range where I spend over 95% of my time. I may pass another vehicle on a two lane road towing my trailer once a year if that, so the ability to do so just doesn't mean much to me. If others want to make a habit of it, that's up to them. I just hope I'm not coming the other way when they are.

[Perrysburg_Dodg]

Hybridhunter wrote:

But it just so happened I found myself on an abnormally busy 2 lane today, with more than a few geriatrics driving 10mph or more under the limit. I used to have 240hp, in a much smaller / lighter truck. I'd have been stuck in the slowpoke parade all day with the rolling terrain only offering limited passing opportunities. My point about a trailer requiring 110-120hp was that deduct that number off what lives under the hood, and that's what you got when you need it. And lets be honest, no one wants to go 50mph down the highway. All that philosophical oil burner happiness would have evaporated pretty fast this morning.... Slow isn't all that relaxing under those circumstances.
Flame away diesel zealots, cuz if the facts don't favor a debate, you can always resort to Ad Homonym.

Well first off if you are telling us you are going to be passing on a two line with the rolling terrain only offering limited passing opportunities with a TT or fiver in tow then you are a never mind. Glade up don't live near me and my family. I do pity the people that do live around you.

There are way to many Eco-diesels out there now, proving you wrong. But hay we get it you hate FCA and anything we build, so go buy you Eoc-boost and be happy.

Don

[boocoodinkydow]

DSteiner51 wrote:
We now have 17 pages of proof that some folks should never have passed 8th grade.

Too funny but sadly true. I'm beginning to understand why bicycle assembly instructions are written at a 3rd grade level.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

That NASCAR engine would have around 550 ft/lbs of torque. An engine with that kind of HP and torque would blow past that Mack so fast on a grade the doors would blow off.

I have no idea what power out & stop means? :h

[DSteiner51]

We now have 17 pages of proof that some folks should never have passed 8th grade.