The China-Bomb debate Put to rest

[4X4Dodger]

Almost every week or more a thread appears with someone with a tire question. And just as predictably the China Bomb experts come out and start decrying all Chinese made tires.

Then usually they recommend MAXXIS tires. Maxxis are held in almost religious high regard by some here and they claim are NOT made in China.

This is usually followed by several others who also recommend Maxxis.

I personally have no doubt that Maxxis are good tires. As are Goodyears, Kumho, Cooper and many other brands. But I don't beleive they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other.

I have tried in many of these posts to bring some perspective on Chinese manufacturing which I know quite well from my professional life. I also try to bring some facts to bear on the subject.

So in an effort to arm myself with more facts I was doing some research on Tire Manufacturing in China and came across a very interesting article in a Tire Industry Publication Called Tire Review.

The chart below appears in that article clearly showing that MAXXIS is part of one of the largest tire manufacturers in China. Note also the inclusion of several western tire manufacturers who also manufacture in China.

From Tire Review Magazine 10/1/2015 David Shaw



Now for a little context: The article I cite was written about the tire Industry IN China ie it centered mostly on the Chinese Domestic market. It did cover the issue of exports also. But it's main focus was the Domestic Chinese market.

The article goes on to explain that there is currently a shakedown taking place in the Chinese Tire industry with some new US tariffs being applied (due to alleged Dumping) and new regulations on the industry by the Government of China. Here is a quote:

"U.S. duties aside, probably the biggest factor in the Chinese tire industry crisis is the slew of new legislation being issued by the Chinese government and managed through the CRIA. China is set to become the most-heavily regulated country in the world for tire manufacturing."

and...According to the article China dominates the GLOBAL market for tires.

I hope this takes a few steps towards normalizing the debate on this site about China Bombs and how great Maxxis are.

The FACT is that some great tires are made by many companies in China, by Chinese, American and European companies.

So please lets just stop the China Bomb rants and stop encouraging folks who have tire questions to replace all the tires that came on their new trailers. It's a waste of money and there is no evidence of any kind that it is either necessary or desirable.

As you can see those revered MAXXIS are owned by a Chinese firm and are manufactured in China as well as some other Asian countries.

[westend]

One can whine and complain about the use of the various tire types. But that does or change the fact that each is designed to do a specific task. It's suitability for that task is nothing more than opinion and rhetoric.

I would opine that the LT tire, generally, will have more longevity than an ST. FWIW, I replaced my TT tires with Carlisle RH Trail ST Load D as I found good reviews of them on this Forum and other sources. I am married to an older hub design and limited clearance so I chose the ST tire. If that changes, I may choose an LT tire. So far, in limited travel, the Carlisles are working well for me.

[gmw_photos]

rbpru wrote:
STs and LT do not operate in the same environment. LT are subjected to turning torque, acceleration torque, and day to day wear and tear to name a few. That is why they are tested to these and other requirements.

STs are designed and tested for straight tracking, lower rolling resistances and less sidewall flex and other trailer needs.

One can whine and complain about the use of the various tire types. But that does or change the fact that each is designed to do a specific task. It's suitability for that task is nothing more than opinion and rhetoric.

But how does square with the fact that for instance, Good Year, even though they also make ST tires, also states in their own documents that their LT tire can be used on trailers ?

Sounds to me like they are saying both their St and LT can be used interchangeably ( as long as within load limits ) on a trailer.

They are saying in effect, to use your words, "LT tires are suitable to the specific task of trailering"

EDIT: or perhaps I should say, "LT tires as well as ST tires are suitable for trailer applications".

That certainly seems to be the opinion of Dexter axle company, as well as many trailer companies ( Titan trailer as an example ).

EDIT2: I agree with your statement: "But that does or change the fact that each is designed to do a specific task".

It is my belief that regarding ST, that "task" is to provide a product that can be delivered at the absolute lowest price point possible. At that, the product is a wild success, as you would expect it to be. Build it in a place that has the lowest labor cost, a factory that may or may not meet the highest standards of production quality, and a testing standard that is lower than what other tires ( P, LT ) have to meet. Sounds like a business prescription to me that allows for a low price point indeed.

[4X4Dodger]

Huntindog wrote:

pira114 wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

pira114 wrote:
Like I said, I'd be comfortable with either. But there's a reason they make ST tires:

http://m.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.do

Why Use An "ST" Tire
"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering.
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire.
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements.
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=219


"Trailers will be more stable and pull better on tires designed specifically for trailer use. Since Special Trailer (ST) tires are constructed with heavier duty materials, they are tougher than typical passenger vehicle tires."

There is NO independant tests that would verify any of it.

There are no independent studies to refute them either. Just sayin. Internet posts notwithstanding of course...

True that... But you cannot ignore the fact that LT tires ARE independantly tested to higher standards.

Industry claims are just that, claims.

Just like a TT or car salesmans claims are... And they carry the same weight with me. A healthy dose of skeptiscism whenever someone is after my cash.

Huntingdog: first you should go back up thread and carefully read the info I posted from the NHTSA which clearly says ST and LT tires are subjected to the SAME testing.

Secondly your assertion that ST's are suspect because the Manufacturers are telling you in quite clear terms why they are better for trailer use than LT's just makes no sense.

Those same manufacturers that were quoted also make LT TIRES and sell many more of those than ST's at higher cost. There is absolutely NO incentive for the manufacturer to try to take business from one product, which sells MORE and is more profitable and shift that business to the ST Tire. They have NO motive to discourage you from buying LT's in favor of ST's.

If their motive was just to get your cash they would be telling you to buy the LT's and not bother making the ST.

As for industry Claims being just claims...well try telling that to the industry that puts millions of dollars into R&D to improve tire design and manufacturing methods to keep up with a VERY fast changing marketplace both for OEM and Aftermarket tires.

I am sorry but your arguments just don't hold water.

[rbpru]

STs and LT do not operate in the same environment. LT are subjected to turning torque, acceleration torque, and day to day wear and tear to name a few. That is why they are tested to these and other requirements.

STs are designed and tested for straight tracking, lower rolling resistances and less sidewall flex and other trailer needs.

One can whine and complain about the use of the various tire types. But that does or change the fact that each is designed to do a specific task. It's suitability for that task is nothing more than opinion and rhetoric.

[Huntindog]

pira114 wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

pira114 wrote:
Like I said, I'd be comfortable with either. But there's a reason they make ST tires:

http://m.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.do

Why Use An "ST" Tire
"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering.
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire.
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements.
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=219


"Trailers will be more stable and pull better on tires designed specifically for trailer use. Since Special Trailer (ST) tires are constructed with heavier duty materials, they are tougher than typical passenger vehicle tires."

There is NO independant tests that would verify any of it.

There are no independent studies to refute them either. Just sayin. Internet posts notwithstanding of course...

True that... But you cannot ignore the fact that LT tires ARE independantly tested to higher standards.

Industry claims are just that, claims.

Just like a TT or car salesmans claims are... And they carry the same weight with me. A healthy dose of skeptiscism whenever someone is after my cash.

[pira114]

Huntindog wrote:

pira114 wrote:
Like I said, I'd be comfortable with either. But there's a reason they make ST tires:

http://m.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.do

Why Use An "ST" Tire
"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering.
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire.
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements.
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=219


"Trailers will be more stable and pull better on tires designed specifically for trailer use. Since Special Trailer (ST) tires are constructed with heavier duty materials, they are tougher than typical passenger vehicle tires."

There is NO independant tests that would verify any of it.

There are no independent studies to refute them either. Just sayin. Internet posts notwithstanding of course...

[Lynnmor]

Huntindog wrote:

I often see "curbing" listed as a primary reason that ST tires fail..

I find this laugable. I have an old Blazer that I drive to work. When leaving it is easier/faster for me to drive over the parking curb than to back out and go around to the exit.

Since I am ALWAYS in a hurry to leave work. That Blazer has had it's LT tires curbed DAILY for over 20 years. No tire failures either.

Yet we are told that curbing an ST tire once will cause a failure!! JUNK.

I believe that when folks talk about "curbing" they mean jamming the sidewalls into the curb. Just rolling over a curb should do little damage to any tire. That said, just look at some tires on cars that are parked downtown, some will have more wear on the sidewalls than om the tread. A trailer that is forced to hop a curb, by cutting a corner too short, could damage any tire.

[Huntindog]

myredracer wrote:


You will never, ever know how often or by how much someone's ST tires ran over 65 mph, or how often they were under-inflated, or how often they hit potholes or speed bumps at speed, how often they turned 90 degree corners on pavement, or how often they ran on road shoulders, etc. How close were they to their max. load capacity rating? Internal damage from heat due to under-inflation and/or excess speed is cumulative and it can be many miles later that you have a failure and thus you can't relate the failure to what you recently did. If you bought a used TT, you can't possibly know how the tires were treated.

If you live on the west coast, you will never know how much the delivery guy drove over 65 mph or how many potholes or big cracks in concrete slab highways he hit. Your brand new TT can have over 2K miles on used tires in unknown condition. We followed a delivery guy last year in Ca. and saw how he treated the TT tires.

I often see "curbing" listed as a primary reason that ST tires fail..

I find this laugable. I have an old Blazer that I drive to work. When leaving it is easier/faster for me to drive over the parking curb than to back out and go around to the exit.

Since I am ALWAYS in a hurry to leave work. That Blazer has had it's LT tires curbed DAILY for over 20 years. No tire failures either.

Yet we are told that curbing an ST tire once will cause a failure!! JUNK.

[Huntindog]

pira114 wrote:
Like I said, I'd be comfortable with either. But there's a reason they make ST tires:

http://m.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.do

Why Use An "ST" Tire
"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering.
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire.
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements.
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=219


"Trailers will be more stable and pull better on tires designed specifically for trailer use. Since Special Trailer (ST) tires are constructed with heavier duty materials, they are tougher than typical passenger vehicle tires."

There are a couple of problems with this statement.

The first is that it is just manfacturers claims.
There is NO independant tests that would verify any of it.
The govt. required ST tire test standards are vastly more lenient than the LT tire tests.

The second problem is that many of the so called special construction is also CHEAPER to manufacture.

[4X4Dodger]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Before china made any of our tires ST tires we called them ST tire bombs......for good reasons.
Then ST tire production was moved to china and naturally morphed into china bombs.....for the same reasons.
Not all tires made in china expire at the rate the ST tire does. We have some very good china made P and LT and heavy truck tires out here on the road.

JMO....... Carlisle who is the oldest ST makers out here saw the light and redesigned their ST tires with the Radial Trail RH. The RH lost that rounded sidewall/tread profile and now looks more like a LT tire profile and its higher speed rating.

Now several (not all) ST tire brands have the higher speed rating. At some point maybe all ST tires will be the new redesign with the higher speed ratings and can run for 7-8 years at 50k-60k like the LT tire.

Once the ST tire has reached that goal then we can drop the china bomb tag. Only years in service and miles in service will tell the rest of the story but i'm betting companies like Carlisle and others can make a ST tire that can equal the LT and P tires we use on trailers.

Well this is just not true in my experience. My family owned a large trucking company...moving and storage, Van Lines Agents with branches from So. Calif. to N. Carolina. This was in the early 60's through the 70's.

We had commercial ST tires on most of our trailers. When the "Doughnuts" came out we had some of those. ST tires were made then to do what they do. That same technology and the lessons learned were flowed down to smaller versions. In those days they were all Bias ply tires of course, which had many more problems than the radials of today.

Europe had radials on virtually all of their cars by then...America was way behind and slow to adopt the new tire design. (as usual)

ST tire design has been a continuously updated technology, and both the commercial types and light vehicle types are much much better than ever.

It's peoples unchanging perceptions and mindsets that haven't kept pace with reality that brings us here to this discussion.

[pira114]

Like I said, I'd be comfortable with either. But there's a reason they make ST tires:

http://m.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.do

Why Use An "ST" Tire
"ST" tires feature materials and construction to meet the higher load requirements and demands of trailering.
The polyester cords are bigger than they would be for a comparable "P" or "LT" tire.
The steel cords have a larger diameter and greater tensile strength to meet the additional load requirements.
"ST" tire rubber compounds contain more chemicals to resist weather and ozone cracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=219


"Trailers will be more stable and pull better on tires designed specifically for trailer use. Since Special Trailer (ST) tires are constructed with heavier duty materials, they are tougher than typical passenger vehicle tires."

[gmw_photos]

rbpru wrote:
....snip....

It would be impossible to compare LTs to STs data because they operate in two very different worlds.

I'm sorry my friend, but I can't really agree with that. My trailer tires operate in exactly the same world as my truck tires. About 15 to 20 feet behind the truck tires. In my experience, not surprisingly, LT tires on the trailer have functioned exactly the same on my trailers as they have on my truck.

That was not the case when I had ST tires. I had some of them fail, while the truck tires continued to work as they were supposed to. So I made the mental connection a long time ago: why not put the same kind of tires on the trailer as the truck ? I did. It works for me.

If your method works for you, that's great. Some of us have found different methods work for our use.

[JIMNLIN]

Before china made any of our tires ST tires we called them ST tire bombs......for good reasons.
Then ST tire production was moved to china and naturally morphed into china bombs.....for the same reasons.
Not all tires made in china expire at the rate the ST tire does. We have some very good china made P and LT and heavy truck tires out here on the road.

JMO....... Carlisle who is the oldest ST makers out here saw the light and redesigned their ST tires with the Radial Trail RH. The RH lost that rounded sidewall/tread profile and now looks more like a LT tire profile and its higher speed rating.

Now several (not all) ST tire brands have the higher speed rating. At some point maybe all ST tires will be the new redesign with the higher speed ratings and can run for 7-8 years at 50k-60k like the LT tire.

Once the ST tire has reached that goal then we can drop the china bomb tag. Only years in service and miles in service will tell the rest of the story but i'm betting companies like Carlisle and others can make a ST tire that can equal the LT and P tires we use on trailers.

[pira114]

Things break. I've had cheap tires last a long time, and expensive tires go full tilt way too soon. And vice versa.

And yes, you'll still get a ticket in Ca for going over 55. The law is the law regardless of how stupid it is. And with the condition most of our roads are in, 55 might be too fast in some areas.

It's impossible to say how many of these "China bombs" were actually due to road debris the driver was never aware of. Personally, I'd be comfortable with either type of tire from wherever

[rbpru]

My only comment is STs do what they are I intended to do. LTs do what they are intended to do and Ps do what they are intended to do.

For example if you feel safer with LTs on your F-150 instead of the Ps issued by Ford, then by all means you should change them. Just do not expect others to see the wisdom of your choice.

Likewise LTs for STs on TT. If you are not comfortable with STs on your TT somebody will be willing to figure out how to make the change to LTs for you. Other will simply find it overkill or a flat waste of time and money.

When I see examples of I shredded tire, regardless of the type or brand; my first question is how far was it driven after it was punctured by a road hazard before it shredded?

It would be impossible to compare LTs to STs data because they operate in two very different worlds.