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Water on rubber Roof

jk1
Explorer
Explorer

We have a spot on our roof on our brand new 2024 coleman lantern trailer where water tends to pool. This has caused a brown spot on the rubber membrane. Is this normal? Will this cause the rubber to wear out and leak through to the roof underneath the rubber membrane? We have taken it to the dealer and they say this is normal for it to discolor, and will not repair it under warranty because the manufacturer, Keystone, claims there is nothing wrong. We are worried that the brown spot is an indication of water damage and will cause the rubber membrane to fail soon and cause damage underneath the membrane.

11 REPLIES 11

JBarca
Nomad II
Nomad II

Hi JK1,

Your pictures help show what you are talking about and a few things that still may need to be discussed. As I stated, I restore older water-damaged campers.  I'm not a shop for hire; I have a somewhat extreme retirement hobby in repairing campers for a host of friends and family. I am now on my 16th water-damaged camper, so I will pass along what I know to help you as a fellow camper.    I'll refrain from telling you what to do with your dealer or Keystone.

I tried to find your camper on the Dutchmen site and have yet to find it; maybe you can tell us the year and model; a new camper may be a year or two older.  Better, post a link to your camper on the website.  The larger Coleman Lantern's are here, https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman-lantern#standardsOptions   The smaller Coleman here, https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman#standardsOptions   Neither of those campers seem to line up with the roof shot you sent by the vents in the roof. 

I wanted to confirm the roof makeup; the larger Lantern uses 3/8" OSB decking.  The smaller one, well, it doesn't say what they use.   Your camper, being smaller, may or may not use 3/8" decking, which is for direct walk-on roofs.  Yours may be a non-walk-on direct roof without support, which needs a tarp placed on the membrane to protect the membrane and small pieces of plywood over the trap to span the rafters to service the roof.   If you know for sure your roof is a full walk-on roof, please confirm this. 

Now, to your picture.  I drew on it so that we could talk about it.53835212814_ab3cec26e8_o

The depression is not in a normal ponding place.  Here is where the roof decking, need to know, comes into place.  If the deck is 3/8" OSB, well, that depression may have come from manufacturing; oops, it got crushed, and they just let it go. 3/8" decking at the edge of a camper where a lot of support does typically not sink.  But, if you have a non-walk-on roof, then they can use a thinner, lighter substrate to glue the membrane, too, and that thin substrate can be more easily damaged.  The lighter substrate non-walk-on roofs save weight and allow more cargo capacity on some brands of camper. 

Now, what do you do with it?   From my camper restoration background, I would do this, and it may be harder for you to do, but I think you can at least do the investigation to have a better place more info to talk with Keystone or the dealer.

I use a moisture meter to scan for wetness. I have used these a lot, and once I understood what the readings were telling me, they have never failed to find something wet that you cannot see from the outside.  I use the General Instruments Model #MMD7NP pinless moisture meter in "wall" mode.  It gives a 0 to 100% reading of relative wetness, not % of moisture, like a pin-type meter can.  It scans up to 3/4" deep behind the sensor for anything wet.  And there is then the learning curve of what the numbers mean. 

Here are the steps I would take. 

Clean the black mold/dirt off the area.  Mold can hold moisture in some cases.  Let the roof dry. 

Using a pinless moisture meter, scan the area where the depression is and around it. Confirm the area is dry or has a level of moisture.  If the system comes up dry, this helps take one course of action. If it comes up wet/damp in the number range, something is going on, which means there is a different course of action.   This meter inspection only takes a few minutes but tells a lot.  Let me know if you want more on the meter; they only cost ~ $45 or so if you want to buy one, the right type for non-destructive testing. 

Next is the red circle area.   This might or might not be a picture anomaly, but the membrane looks slightly puffed up.  A few light taps with the finger may show it is rock solid glued to the decking, or if it is loose, it is not glued down tight.   Do not do this test on a hot summer afternoon; do it in the morning when it is cooler.  The membrane can shrink tight when hot and be puffed up when cooler temps.   This adds another piece of info to go with the moisture meter test on what may be happening or happened.   I'll explain when we know if this is puffed up and wet, dry and puffed up, or dry and tight. What can be a course of action? Fix it or let it go? 

If we can understand there is no water damage, that helps as it creates the start of, this is not a bad thing to live with.  If it is wet, it is time to create a get-well plan.  More on this when the inspection is over,

Next is the red arrow I put on there. If you want to keep this camper for a long time, I highly recommend that the joint between the gutter rail and the roof membrane be cleaned, let dry, and then sealed with a non-sag/non-leveling lap sealant compatible with your TPO roof. Dicor and Alfa Systems make these products.  It will only take approx. 1 tube of caulk to do both sides.  Less than $10 to $20 for the caulk and some time can save you a lot of heartache in the future.  Some RV manufacturers leave that joint un-caulked.  All I can say is it's a cost-cutting measure.   That joint has been a source of water intrusion as the camper ages.  You may make it through the warranty period, but not if you want to keep the camper for many years.  I have seen it and had to repair the camper due to its absence.   Attempting to get Keystone or another RV manufacturer to agree that this needs to be caulked will not get you very far.  Just take it upon yourself to correct it. 

Oh, and I suggest you store the camper level.  The thought of storing it off-level can sooner or later create issues.   The roof draining level allows for a more even water flow off and down the siding than allowing water  to be less in one direction but flood another area.  Yes, the roof should not leak in any situation, but when you flood one area more, the odds are higher against you that a roof seam or siding joint, where any opening is, will, in time, leak.  Siding penetration leaks can be as bad if not worse than roof joint leaks. 

Hope this helps,

John

2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10 RA, 21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR, upgraded 2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver. Hitched with a 1,700# Reese HP WD, HP Dual Cam to a 2004 Sunline Solaris T310R travel trailer.


@JBarca wrote:

 This meter inspection only takes a few minutes but tells a lot.  Let me know if you want more on the meter; they only cost ~ $45 or so if you want to buy one, the right type for non-destructive testing. 


heck, I want one, tell us more ๐Ÿ˜‰

2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100

Hi StirCrazy,

The moisture meter is a whole post topic by itself, and your quest for more info on it has inspired me to create a post about it here on the new GS forum.  ๐Ÿ™‚  The stand alone post is in the works, now, but it will take me some time to finish. Maybe a week etc with what I have going on right now.  But it will come as there are a lot of folks who can benefit from knowing about a moisture meter and how to use it on there camper. I'll give you the cliff notes version here, as this can help JK1.  

See this post on the Sunline Owners Club forum where I first started using a moisture meter.  https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f71/moisture-meters-for-inspecting-a-camper-17613.html 

That post from 2017 was the start of my using the meter and all it can do to find leaks you cannot see or smell.  Over the last seven years I have used it a lot on many campers to find moisture that you cannot see.  Many owners who's camper in looked at with it was shocked and they could not see any water signs in the living space.  And when we opened up the camper, it was wet. 

That Sunline post may hold you over until I get the Good Sam updated post up.   As a perk, Lowes right now is clearanceing the model I use, not sure why but they will not be this cheap again for the level of feature that specific meter can do.   https://www.lowes.com/pd/General-Tools-Instruments-Digital-Test-Meter/50284821   On the General Instrument web site that model is still for sale. It may be at Lowes they now offers a Kobolt meter, their brand and no longer want to offer the higher end featured one I use.  You may have to order it online if the local store of out of them.  I just bought 2 more, a spare for me and one for my son for his camper.  Anyone owning camper ideally has one if you plan to keep a camper a long time. Sooner or later you will need to use it. 

Hope this helps,

John 

 

2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10 RA, 21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR, upgraded 2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver. Hitched with a 1,700# Reese HP WD, HP Dual Cam to a 2004 Sunline Solaris T310R travel trailer.

JBarca
Nomad II
Nomad II

Hi JK1,

I may be able to help. I have restored many water-roof-damaged campers and can pass along some of what I have  seen and found when doing roof repairs.

A few things, you called your roof to be a rubber roof.  Sadly, the RV industry stopped using actual EPDM rubber a number of years ago.   TPO and PVC membranes are now very common for travel trailers. Both  are a plastic formulation, no rubber at all.  This link to the Coleman site states the Lantern model uses a TPO membrane on a 3/8" decked full walk on arched roof. https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman-lantern#constructionOption   If you have something other then the what I found, please tell us what it is you have.  

The pooling or ponding as many roofers call it, can be a long term problem depending where the ponding is occurring and if it constantly ponds in the same spot.    Repetitive ponding happens when the decking has sagged and there is a low spot when the camper is setup level or even nose up or down sometimes.  Left over dirt and mold as time goes on will create a discoloration in the ponding area.  The water evaporates and what is left is the mold/dirt etc. concentrated in that area. The actual membrane can withstand the ponding in it's virgin form, however any caulking/roof sealants that are under water during ponding can be a problem over time.

Can you post a few pics of the roof showing the discoloration and where it is located in relation to any roof seams?  It is easier to talk to what you are seeing then just generic answers. 

I hope this helps.

John

 

2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10 RA, 21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR, upgraded 2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver. Hitched with a 1,700# Reese HP WD, HP Dual Cam to a 2004 Sunline Solaris T310R travel trailer.

I apologize, I misworded what I was saying, I do understand it is not a rubber roof and that this top layer is simply a membrane. below are some pictures I took. The service department at camping world told me there is a low spot causing this but the manufacture won't cover repairing the low spot under warranty.

PXL_20240522_010646855.MP.jpgPXL_20240522_010645047.MP.jpgPXL_20240522_190830470.MP.jpg

way2roll
Navigator II
Navigator II

Water pooling on an RV roof would concern me simply for the risk of it finding it's way into one of the many penetrations. RV roofs should have a pitch/dome to keep this from happening. I would push the manufacturer harder. My only question to the OP is, is your RV level?


Jeff - 2023 FR Sunseeker 2400B MBS

The dealer told us to keep it on an angle with either the front up higher or down lower to try to keep it from pooling, but at this point the original damage is done, and it hasn't rained again since then, so we will see when it rains again if that helps.

To be clear, the dealer told you to keep it unlevel on purpose? Meanwhile the rest of us do what we can to keep ours level. From your pics it's pretty clear there is a low spot. Almost looks like someone stepped there or dropped something. I'd file a complain with BBB for the dealer and manufacturer. It's not right. Not only that, it seriously diminishes the value of your RV. They don't want to do it because there is a lot of work involved in removing the membrane investigating the low spot, fixing it and reinstalling the membrane.  But it's simply not right and through no fault of your own. I'd be pretty heated.


Jeff - 2023 FR Sunseeker 2400B MBS

Yes, the dealer said there is a low spot that is causing this, and that is very clear, but their service department simply said just keep it on an angle so maybe it won't pool there. I agree, this is absolutely not a proper solution, we want to be able to keep it level. But, while the dealer admits there is a low spot, the manufacturer won't cover to the repair under warranty, and the dealer is not fixing it unless the warranty covers it. Very frustrating as this is a brand new trailer and this has all been going on since three weeks after we bought it. So basically we bought a lemon, and none of them will make it right. We are very heated about this whole scenario and know that they won't fix it or make it right simply because it would cost them a lot of time and money to properly fix it in taking the membrane off, fixing the issue and then putting the membrane back on and resealing it all. It shouldn't matter how much it costs them, they should fix it, not leave us with a trailer that won't be worth half what we paid for it, and will in short time have serious water damage to the roof structure and walls. But unfortunately, by the time that happens it will be likely out of warranty and then Keystone nor Camping World will still not step in and make it right. Thanks for the comments, a filing with the BBB is a great idea. 

warenty isn't going to cover that, the membrane is in tact and there is no structural failure.  while it is going to leave a black mark it will clean up for the most part when you do your yearly inspection and cleaning.  there are no seams in that area and it is by the round down of the edge of the roof.  just make sure when you do your checks through out the year you pay atention to any seams that are sealed and reseal as nessasary.  I bet if you look at 99% of the rv's out there, they all will have a puddle somewhere, and aslong as it isn't on a sealed seam it is fine.  

2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100

JDsdogs
Nomad II
Nomad II

This is caused by a low spot in the roof or membrane. Water is pooling there, when it dries/ evaporates it leaves the brown spot behind. The minerals left behind canโ€™t be good for the membrane and may well shorten its life. Definitely be bad if pooled water is allowed to freeze. 
Itโ€™s a shame that Keystone is not taking care of this issue.