Why all manufacturers do not use composite?

[richy2]

Since purchasing a Evergreen Everlite trailer new in 2010, I have wondered why all builders of rv's do not use composite materials rather than wood in their construction. I have had no worries or issues with leaks with this trailer, however, all four of my previous trailers developed leaks. Most of the time damage was done before leak became apparent. I maintain my rigs by the book,so lack of maintenance is not the issue. We have reached the point where we would like a different floor plan with certain length and weight specs other than the ones available at Evergreen. We will not consider any brand that uses wood, so we will wait and see what develops.
There are many posts on this site concerning wood rot and repairs due to water damage. It may cost a little more to build with composite, but I think customer satisfaction would be greatly improved. Just my thoughts.
Apparently I need to clarify the word composite as it relates to rv construction. A composite panel is usually an aluminum frame with block insulation sandwiched with two sheets of a plastic like material that is not subject to degradation due to water or mold. Azdel is commonly used in this process. These components are bonded together ideally with vacuum. A roof or floor panel is about 4" ,wall panels 1/1/2 to 2". NO WOOD.

[Mike_Up]

Terryallan wrote:

However. Have y'all noticed that the Aluminum sided RVs are making a come back? On nearly every dealer lot. Fiberglass sided RV are harder to find, and the Aluminum sided ones are every where. From Coachmen, to Shasta. Grey Wolf, and Jayco.

Yes, because fiberglass laminated trailer delaminate quite bad with some age on them. Also the fiberglass gets a poor flat chalky look to it as well.

Stick and tin (aluminum sided) trailers hold up far better with age. Go to the more rustic campgrounds away from the city, where every one doesn't have a brand new camper. There you will see far more older stick and tin trailers than laminated trailers. Stick and tin has longevity, the trailers are built not glued together. :W

[Terryallan]

4X4Dodger wrote:
There may be some misconception here. "Azdel" is part of the name of the company, HANWA AZDEL, that produces automotive THERMOPLASTIC Composites of many kinds.

The structural composite they make is called LWRT (light weight reinforced thermoplastic)

If you own a pair of Hexcel skis or have ever boarded a 747 and walked down the aisle you have been on some of the best composite material made. (not by Hanwa)

Composites can do many things very well and they have a place in RV design. However the cost in the relatively low quantities of RV MFG is rather high compared to other materials. It does have one great advantage and this is why I beleive it is being used more in the RV industry...It reduces the manhours of assembly greatly, thus offsetting it's higher cost.

However. My APEX proudly states on the side. AZDEL onboard, Composite panels. AZDEL is made just 30 miles from my house, in Shelby NC.

[hohenwald48]

FrankShore wrote:
Well, Azdel isn't asbestos! Nor is Compositek! Have you read about the two? It would be easier to read up and educate yourself before making asbestos comparisons between Azdel & Compositek! Just saying!

I think if you had "read up" on asbestos when it was all the rage the same marketing claims would be evident. I guess I'm just not as smart as you. Just saying!

[westend]

It reduces the manhours of assembly greatly, thus offsetting it's higher cost.

This. When the Mfg's upgrade their tooling to be able to form a composite wall, everything will be built with composite walls.

Personally, I think the walls are good but there are posts on the Forum with owners having a failed composite floor and some Mfg's aren't up to the task of implementing that system correctly.

[goducks10]

Terryallan wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

westend wrote:
Azdel may have 50% more R-value than Luan but you are increasing the value from R-0.25 to R-0.37 (actual values are lower). The only value with these synthetic materials is for the consumer--they are waterproof and weigh somewhat less, for the mfg--they are consistent and easy to tool/bond, they are a marketing ++.

I would suggest to the OP that maintenance regarding sealing from water is the best "science". If you develop leaks with composite materials the glue will fail and damage will be greater than a wood frame, i.e. delamination and rapid structural failure.

X2!

Another potential "pitfall" of materials like "Azdel" is the fact that if it is "water proof" it can HOLD water in between the walls..

Essentially TRAPPING moisture which will eventually MOLD AND MILDEW..

Then you are no better off than using good old time proven stick and tin..

So if you are looking at the idea of Azdel as curing all water leak problems you are only kidding yourself..

NEVER said AZDEL was water proof. It is not. I said it will not rot, and it won't. And the only proven thing about Luan. Is that it is heavy, and it will rot. Nothing wrong with Luan. It is just a dated technology.
Folks, Progress is every where. And some of it is good. Remember that time when ALL RVs were made of aluminum siding? Things change. You can come along, or sit and watch. Wouldn't you really like for your RV to be 1000 pounds lighter, and stronger at the same time?

However. Have y'all noticed that the Aluminum sided RVs are making a come back? On nearly every dealer lot. Fiberglass sided RV are harder to find, and the Aluminum sided ones are every where. From Coachmen, to Shasta. Grey Wolf, and Jayco.

I wouldn't say aluminum TT's are making a come back. More likely a regional thing. Around here it's opposite.

Look at what's offered buy those manufactures.
Forest River offers 17 models. 8 are aluminum.
Keystone 4-17 are aluminum.
Jayco 2-6 are aluminum.
Heartland 4-5 are aluminum.
Evergreen 0
Palamino 1-4 are aluminum.
Crossroad RV 2-6 "
Primetime 1-4 "

I don't see any fiberglass sided models being discontinued and replaced with aluminum sided models.
Seems to be that those dealers near you are stocking what sells best for various reasons.

[Desert_Captain]

Azdel is far superior to the outdated Luan found in most RV's. Adel cost more but as it will not absorb water/rot (ever), the result is a better built RV. Lance, long known for building a quality product, was one of the first companies to recognize the inherent advantages of using Azdel.

Nexus also uses Azdel for all of their wall and ceiling construction, vacuum bonding the Azdel to the foam insulation and framing in steel. I think Winnebago is beginning to use Azdel in their higher end lines as well.

Azdel will continue to be a good indicator of a quality built coach as more manufacturers make this long overdue improvement.

:C

[4X4Dodger]

There may be some misconception here. "Azdel" is part of the name of the company, HANWA AZDEL, that produces automotive THERMOPLASTIC Composites of many kinds.

The structural composite they make is called LWRT (light weight reinforced thermoplastic)

If you own a pair of Hexcel skis or have ever boarded a 747 and walked down the aisle you have been on some of the best composite material made. (not by Hanwa)

Composites can do many things very well and they have a place in RV design. However the cost in the relatively low quantities of RV MFG is rather high compared to other materials. It does have one great advantage and this is why I beleive it is being used more in the RV industry...It reduces the manhours of assembly greatly, thus offsetting it's higher cost.

[Community Alumni]

I wouldn't consider Azdel a new cutting edge material as it's been on the road here in the US since 2007. It was used over in Europe before that. It's used all over the world in a bunch of different application. I would consider fiberglass/luan more of a ticking time bomb than Azdel or Compositek. I remember when fiberglass sided trailers first hit the market and everyone said, "Stay away from those trailers. One day they'll crack and you'll have to replace your entire wall." Lol, never saw that epidemic come to fruition.

Everyone knows composites make for better materials in RVs, but it all comes down to profit. Composites carry a premium over stick/tin and fiberglass/luan. Items with premiums eat into profits when you're trying to maintain a specific price point. So the industry is slow to adopt until the newer technology has gotten to the point of being dirt cheap for them. I remember going to RV shows back in 2009 and still seeing outdated tube TV's in brand new Class A's. Now that a 32" LCD TV is dirt cheap, you have to look far and wide to find a CRT in a Class A.

[Terryallan]

Gdetrailer wrote:

westend wrote:
Azdel may have 50% more R-value than Luan but you are increasing the value from R-0.25 to R-0.37 (actual values are lower). The only value with these synthetic materials is for the consumer--they are waterproof and weigh somewhat less, for the mfg--they are consistent and easy to tool/bond, they are a marketing ++.

I would suggest to the OP that maintenance regarding sealing from water is the best "science". If you develop leaks with composite materials the glue will fail and damage will be greater than a wood frame, i.e. delamination and rapid structural failure.

X2!

Another potential "pitfall" of materials like "Azdel" is the fact that if it is "water proof" it can HOLD water in between the walls..

Essentially TRAPPING moisture which will eventually MOLD AND MILDEW..

Then you are no better off than using good old time proven stick and tin..

So if you are looking at the idea of Azdel as curing all water leak problems you are only kidding yourself..

NEVER said AZDEL was water proof. It is not. I said it will not rot, and it won't. And the only proven thing about Luan. Is that it is heavy, and it will rot. Nothing wrong with Luan. It is just a dated technology.
Folks, Progress is every where. And some of it is good. Remember that time when ALL RVs were made of aluminum siding? Things change. You can come along, or sit and watch. Wouldn't you really like for your RV to be 1000 pounds lighter, and stronger at the same time?

However. Have y'all noticed that the Aluminum sided RVs are making a come back? On nearly every dealer lot. Fiberglass sided RV are harder to find, and the Aluminum sided ones are every where. From Coachmen, to Shasta. Grey Wolf, and Jayco.

[myredracer]

Gdetrailer wrote:


X2!

Another potential "pitfall" of materials like "Azdel" is the fact that if it is "water proof" it can HOLD water in between the walls..

Essentially TRAPPING moisture which will eventually MOLD AND MILDEW..

Then you are no better off than using good old time proven stick and tin..

So if you are looking at the idea of Azdel as curing all water leak problems you are only kidding yourself..

Good point. But there is still an impervious layer on the outside of all RVs that is essentially on the wrong side of an exterior wall assembly. Moisture laden air can migrate to exterior walls where it will condense on the exterior skin in cold weather. This is a fundamental flaw of RV construction IMO. In buildings, the vapor barrier is on the interior side of a wall so that moisture is kept out of the wall cavity. Same thing in ceilings.

If you use an RV a lot in the winter and fail to ventilate it adequately, you WILL get moisture condensing on the exterior skin and underside of a roof.

I doubt Azdel will help with moisture control and may make it worse due to lack of ventilation in the wall cavity. An improperly built shower in a house with an exterior wall can end up with the drywall turning to mush for the same reason of trapping moisture between two impervious layers.

[Gdetrailer]

westend wrote:
Azdel may have 50% more R-value than Luan but you are increasing the value from R-0.25 to R-0.37 (actual values are lower). The only value with these synthetic materials is for the consumer--they are waterproof and weigh somewhat less, for the mfg--they are consistent and easy to tool/bond, they are a marketing ++.

I would suggest to the OP that maintenance regarding sealing from water is the best "science". If you develop leaks with composite materials the glue will fail and damage will be greater than a wood frame, i.e. delamination and rapid structural failure.

X2!

Another potential "pitfall" of materials like "Azdel" is the fact that if it is "water proof" it can HOLD water in between the walls..

Essentially TRAPPING moisture which will eventually MOLD AND MILDEW..

Then you are no better off than using good old time proven stick and tin..

So if you are looking at the idea of Azdel as curing all water leak problems you are only kidding yourself..

[westend]

Azdel may have 50% more R-value than Luan but you are increasing the value from R-0.25 to R-0.37 (actual values are lower). The only value with these synthetic materials is for the consumer--they are waterproof and weigh somewhat less, for the mfg--they are consistent and easy to tool/bond, they are a marketing ++.

I would suggest to the OP that maintenance regarding sealing from water is the best "science". If you develop leaks with composite materials the glue will fail and damage will be greater than a wood frame, i.e. delamination and rapid structural failure.

[rbpru]

I heard that the average TT owner trades for another after six years. It is cost and features that influence buying.

If the buyer likes the floor plan and features the rest of the sales pitch is just hype to them. I doubt the potential for roof leaks is given much thought.

The stick and tin boy will tell you the dreadful tales of composite delamination. So too the tales of rust and corrosion of metal beams among wood users.

The fact that after all these years there are still several TT manufacturing processes, tells you that none of them are vastly superior in cost or performance.

[Terryallan]

Yes APEX does in fact use AZDEL. And it is great. FYI. It is 50% lighter, 50% stronger, and has 50% more insulation value than the Luan fiberglass TTs. AND the AZDEL will not rot.

As an example of the lightness. My 30 foot bunk house has a yellow sticker weight of 4811 pounds. The ducted 13,500 BTU AC keeps it cool even on a Myrtle Beach summer day. I have friends with Luan that are adding ACs to keep theirs cool. Mine is just fine.

From what I was told. AZDEL was used on high end RVs, until it became cost efficient enough to use on regular RVs.