Why would Keystone remove egress windows from newer models?

[el_jefe1]

Short version: It seems to be (through a very brief and unscientific facebook poll on the Passport owners page) that older model bunkhouse trailers always had fire escape windows, but now the same newer Passport models do not. And it's got me wondering, what is the advantage to the manufacturer of putting in regular slider windows instead of egress escape windows?

Longer version: I've been discussing this at length over in the Keystone forums, and with Keystone directly. My 3290bh has no escape windows in the bunkhouse. I didn't notice it until I'd had the trailer a couple of weeks. Yes, I should have caught it before I bought it, I know.

But actually there is only one escape window in the whole trailer, and it's in the front bedroom. Other than that, it's only a door to get out, no other emergency exits. The bunkhouse is designed to sleep 6, and it has 2 windows, both are the small slider type that only open halfway. Neither is large enough for even a small child to fit through.

My argument to Keystone has been (and still is unresolved) that they advertise compliance with RVIA standards and claim the trailer meets NFPA 1192. But if a sleeping area only has one path to escape, then it does not meet that standard. In my view, if it can be proved that the trailer doesn't meet that standard, regardless of how it is designed, they should modify it to meet the standard.

But it's still got me wondering - they used to have egress windows back there. I've seen 2015 and 2016 models with them. Why remove them from 2018 and 2019 models? What is to be gained by Keystone? Especially if they've removed them to the point that they are no longer actually in compliance with the NFPA standard?

[Ralph_Cramden]

dodge guy wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:

dodge guy wrote:
It doesn’t matter if they are going by some updated rule! If they are using it to skimp on safety equipment then you know they are really skimping in other places. Actually now that we know they are skimping on safety that really questions the operation of Keystone!

And other manufacturers dont skimp, it's only Keystone skimping? They all skimp on both safety equipment and other things. They install the minimum required fire extinguisher. You would be lucky to put out a birthday candle with one of those things. They install the cheapest smoke and CO detectors that can be found. They install tires that are rated right at the max but only if you count X lbs as hitch weight. They put one screw where you need three, and the one screw is most likely stripped. All of the electrical items from a 12V switch to the radio or TV is the cheapest junk availible. The pleather used for upholstery may make it 5 years, I doubt it though, and the cheap foam will be crushed flat never to return regardless. The plastic faucets will wear out if you use them, actually they'll probably break in half, and everything plastic outside will deteriorate from UV damage in about 3 years.

All of them are skimping.....not only Keystone. When you look at sales numbers broken out by brand, Keystone outsells all the others in TT's and 5th wheels by a longshot, and has done so for years.....skimping evidently must work.

Yes, but when it’s so blatantly obvious and it’s a safety issue that they are tip toeing around that’s a problem. Yes others do to, but it’s non safety systems like tank gauges, materials and poor installation. When it comes to the consumers safety that’s where the line has to be drawn.

Forest River skimped on using skilled labor on the electrical system in our Rockwood. The terminals were left loose at the shore power connection and arced.....melting and ruining the wall mounted twist on connector in the process. Every lug on breakers were overtightend to the point of stripping out the heads and smashing the conductors flat so they snapped right off. I have a long email chain going back and forth with Rockwood and they had a lackadaisical attitute....take it back to the dealer....

Since I did not want to wait weeks for an appointment and months for the claim I repaired it all myself. They did send me a new connector and all new breakers.

That was skimping on safety as I see it.

They all do it.

A very common practice all of them use is to install the bare minimum rated tire they can based on GVWR. The tires weight rating total may not even add up the GVWR and theyll assign some of that weight to hitch weight to skimp around going to the next higher rated tire, which may have cost $40 to do, probably less. Thats not skimping on safety? All of them do it and is the reason for a lot of these blowout threads where its all blamed on Chinabombs.

[dodge_guy]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

dodge guy wrote:
It doesn’t matter if they are going by some updated rule! If they are using it to skimp on safety equipment then you know they are really skimping in other places. Actually now that we know they are skimping on safety that really questions the operation of Keystone!

And other manufacturers dont skimp, it's only Keystone skimping? They all skimp on both safety equipment and other things. They install the minimum required fire extinguisher. You would be lucky to put out a birthday candle with one of those things. They install the cheapest smoke and CO detectors that can be found. They install tires that are rated right at the max but only if you count X lbs as hitch weight. They put one screw where you need three, and the one screw is most likely stripped. All of the electrical items from a 12V switch to the radio or TV is the cheapest junk availible. The pleather used for upholstery may make it 5 years, I doubt it though, and the cheap foam will be crushed flat never to return regardless. The plastic faucets will wear out if you use them, actually they'll probably break in half, and everything plastic outside will deteriorate from UV damage in about 3 years.

All of them are skimping.....not only Keystone. When you look at sales numbers broken out by brand, Keystone outsells all the others in TT's and 5th wheels by a longshot, and has done so for years.....skimping evidently must work.

Yes, but when it’s so blatantly obvious and it’s a safety issue that they are tip toeing around that’s a problem. Yes others do to, but it’s non safety systems like tank gauges, materials and poor installation. When it comes to the consumers safety that’s where the line has to be drawn.

[rbpru]

Ralph's comments about the TT manufacturers using bare minimum construction and material is correct. It is also well known.

What is missing? It is that the buyer is willing to pay for.

Like it or not, the vast majority of TTs serve their owners well enough that the folks are not interested in paying more.

If you want better construction, bigger tires etc. it is available for a price but there is a reason these are low volume manufacturers.

It is kind of pointless to debate inches of layout space. One designer thinks you need more room here and less there or vice versa. If you do not like the design, the next person will buy it.

Back to the original issue, I believe there should be an exit my every bed. I am interested in seeing the final outcome.

[Ralph_Cramden]

el.jefe wrote:
Follow up: I got a call from Keystone to answer my challenge that their design doesn't meet the standard. (I might have made that challenge on BBB yesterday).

By her explanation, they are technically meeting the standard by designating the sleeping area as attached to the living area and unobstructed to the main exit. So I guess I at least feel better knowing that they've done the absolute minimum they could do.

Since I've come this far, I might as well try to talk to somebody over at NFPA and confirm their interpretation.

NFPA 1192 6.2.1.2-Each sleeping area shall have two different paths to escape to the outside of the recreational vehicle.

NFPA 1192 provides no clear definition of what separates a "sleeping area" from a "living area".


Here is a link to an older recall regarding Keystone and egress windows. Those recalls have come up more than a few times and its not always Keystone.

KEYSTONE

By looking at pictures and the floorplan. By Keystone using a curtain between the bunk area and living area as opposed to a physical "door", I think they have you in a corner so to speak, and have the NFPA code covered.

Now the NHTSA also has something to say about it, but good luck finding it in the tons of gubmint gobbleygook.

[Ralph_Cramden]

dodge guy wrote:
It doesn’t matter if they are going by some updated rule! If they are using it to skimp on safety equipment then you know they are really skimping in other places. Actually now that we know they are skimping on safety that really questions the operation of Keystone!

And other manufacturers dont skimp, it's only Keystone skimping? They all skimp on both safety equipment and other things. They install the minimum required fire extinguisher. You would be lucky to put out a birthday candle with one of those things. They install the cheapest smoke and CO detectors that can be found. They install tires that are rated right at the max but only if you count X lbs as hitch weight. They put one screw where you need three, and the one screw is most likely stripped. All of the electrical items from a 12V switch to the radio or TV is the cheapest junk availible. The pleather used for upholstery may make it 5 years, I doubt it though, and the cheap foam will be crushed flat never to return regardless. The plastic faucets will wear out if you use them, actually they'll probably break in half, and everything plastic outside will deteriorate from UV damage in about 3 years.

All of them are skimping.....not only Keystone. When you look at sales numbers broken out by brand, Keystone outsells all the others in TT's and 5th wheels by a longshot, and has done so for years.....skimping evidently must work.

[colliehauler]

el.jefe wrote:
What is Trailer Life? How do they resolve things like this?

Trailer Life is a magazine that has a resolution center where you can ask for their help to resolve a issue.

They are owned by the same company that owns this Web site and Camping World.

[el_jefe1]

Follow up: I got a call from Keystone to answer my challenge that their design doesn't meet the standard. (I might have made that challenge on BBB yesterday).

By her explanation, they are technically meeting the standard by designating the sleeping area as attached to the living area and unobstructed to the main exit. So I guess I at least feel better knowing that they've done the absolute minimum they could do.

Since I've come this far, I might as well try to talk to somebody over at NFPA and confirm their interpretation.

[el_jefe1]

The updated rule does answer (somewhat) why older models had the egress and newer ones don't. It sounds like it creates something of a loophole that let's them get away with not putting that bunkhouse egress.

But again I still wonder, is it that much cheaper to put in a slide window instead of an egress? You're still putting in a window, I can't imagine one is that much cheaper than the other that it's worth the manufacturer changing the design.

[dodge_guy]

It doesn’t matter if they are going by some updated rule! If they are using it to skimp on safety equipment then you know they are really skimping in other places. Actually now that we know they are skimping on safety that really questions the operation of Keystone!

[el_jefe1]

What is Trailer Life? How do they resolve things like this?

[colliehauler]

Did they not see it didn't have a escape window when they bought the trailer? If I felt it was dangerous I would not spend time arguing with the mfg. I would order one in and replace the existing window. You can always contact Trailer Life for resolution after it's replaced for reimbursement.

[campinia]

We have a 2018 Keystone Passport 175BH. It has a small door for escape on the bottom bunk and an egress window for the top bunk and an egress window by the front queen bed. So, a total of 4 ways to escape in this small trailer. I would also be very disappointed if I discovered after the fact that there was no egress window in the bunk area.

[rbpru]

We have an escape window in the bedroom, another over the couch and a door towards the rear. Our TT is only 25ft long. I like them because they have the biggest opening for ventilation.

[BubDelicious]

Must have missed this thread some how. I read specifications all the time(NTHSS(FMVSS), European(ESE), OEM), not RV specifications. Keep in mind that I only half arsed read this specification as well. I would also read the definitions and make sure a travel trailer falls under recreational vehicle in this spec.




Ha, well where were you a week ago? Lol.