How 4-season are 4 seasons Lances?

[SkiBumAt50]

Ok, so lots of questions.

First off, let me introduce myself. I've got 3 kids who will all be off to college in the next 5 years or so. My wife and I have always loved traveling and we are avid skiers (Me moreso than her). We live in Upstate NY and have 2 dogs and a Cat.

So for when the kids go off to college for my next adventure I've settled on getting a truck camper. I've ruled out other vehicles for a few reasons. First, I have some towing needs, that some of the 4x4 vans can't accommodate. My two big goals for the TC are using it to drive to different ski resorts here in the North East, and driving it to fishing spots to fly fish. I will get a 4x4 but have no intentions of wheeling it hard; just rough roads and bad weather.

I think I've settled on a Lance 1172 or possibly a 975. I'll mate it to a Ford F550, (possibly super single conversion.) although I haven't decided on the upfitter yet.

I have a large shop that I can park it in, that's heated even in the winter. I built it with an RV in mind so large overhead door, electric drop, pull through, etc.

So first question, those of you that use your water in the winter I assume you are driving with the heat on? I'm pretty handy and would even consider adding a diesel heater to supplement in the winter. This really works if my wife can hop in and go, take showers, use the toilet etc. She doesn't Ski as much as me and is more than happy to go back and kick back with a book while I chase the last lift.

Those of you with the larger Lances what's your experience been? My typical winters here in NY are often down in the single digits (-17C for my Canadian friends) and while I've seen the Lances in person a few times it seems like maybe they'd need a bit more customizing to boost the low end? Do people find the bed warm enough in the really cold? I know some people use the bed systems to get an air gap, etc.

We've been to a few RV shows and the Lance seems to fit our needs the best. I like the room versus Bigfoot, and they seem to be a little more modern than Northern Lite, especially now with the Truma heating and AC. Does anyone use the dehumidifier in the winter? Hows that work?

I also work remotely and might occasionally take it for customer visits if I can reasonably get away with it, so I'll likely equip it with decent internet.

Anyone have any experiences similar to this they care to share? Am I asking too much of it?

[JimK-NY]

StirCrazy wrote:



Power Consumption 6 - 31W
Rated Voltage 12V"

So, it is quite feasible that I could cut my power usage in half with an espar unit...

So let us assume a 20W power consumption. That would be 1.7 amps @ 12 volts. My small truck camper furnace pulls 7 amps. That is a very substantial difference. The difference in fuel consumption is also massive.

[RickW]

SkiBumAt50 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
^I get it. Whatever works best for you is what works best.
The big thing with moisture is volume introduced via external stuff (the wet ski gear) and the lack of good air circulation. The forced air furnace (mouse turd burner lol) does a lot to dry the air but trust me. Few people for a few days in cold weather in a TC will be a challenge to keep humidity and condensation under control. You can. It’s not prohibitive, just a bit of a challenge.
You can charge from the truck somewhat efficiently with a good size DCDC charger.
Still, your engineer sense should guide you from over complicating things like plumbing into the truck fuel tank. Besides those little heaters only use like a half gallon of diesel a day or something minuscule. Nothing a little fuel can and 5 min a day can’t keep full.

If I have any control over it I WILL be doing very similar to you again in the future. And having run a couple TCs thru the gamut from driving to AK to outrunning tornados in the Midwest and boonie docking in the Rockies and cascades, what you’re planning is a great setup.

Cheers!

I understand humidity. That's specifically why I was asking about the dehumidify feature on the new Truma AC that Lance is using. I was wondering if it was like my Canadian friends who use their AC in the winter (Run AC in the winter). When I asked my local dealer guy he had no idea. But if it functions that way? That's a game changer.

Worst case I think a small air-to-air heat exchanger could be fabbed to do air exchange and dry out the camper. Making it look good and fit somewhere is the only problem.

See this post for info on an air to air heat exchanger I made to fit in the sliding window under the bed. Sorry, photos were deleted by photo host. I have used it off and on for the past 10 years.

Heat exchanger for TC

[StirCrazy]

mbloof wrote:


It is my understanding that much like a propane furnace a "diesel heater" (read - actually a furnace) draws combustion air from the outside and vents its exhaust to the outside.

The "flame" heats one side of a "heat exchanger" where cabin air is drawn in and blown out on the other side of it.

The CLAIMED current draw of some of the models available are less than the stock OEM Atwood/Suburban/?? propane furnaces.



- Mark0.

The 5KW model I was looking at (still am) uses 36 watts at full power. that's about 0.5 amp less than my furnace that has 1/2 the BTU. so not a huge reduction when it's running full out. here is the espar rating for a similar output as my furnace.

my furnace is 7800BTU

" Fuel Type Diesel
Heat Output 2200W (7500BTU)
Fuel Consumption 0.02 - 0.1 gal/h (0.06 - 0.28 l/h)
Power Consumption 6 - 31W
Rated Voltage 12V"

So, it is quite feasible that I could cut my power usage in half with an espar unit and make my propane last a lot longer in the heating seasons. Also, diesel is a lot easier to find than propane in a lot of the places I go. but I am also looking at Hydronic systems and trying to figure out how hard it would be to retrofit one in.

[StirCrazy]

notsobigjoe wrote:


What exactly is a diesel heater?

HERE is the top brand names website.

there are others but Espar is the leading brand, there's also Wabasso (might have spelt that wrong) and you have 500 buck Chinese clones that a lot of people get, and they work fine also.

Steve

[Grit_dog]

@mbloof, no claim, the little 8-10kw diesel heaters like one would use in this application use way less power than a typical rv forced air heater.
@skibum, I can’t see a practical use for a diesel coolant heater like a Webasto in your environment and use. Used them in the Arctic to keep from having to idle a diesel truck to stay warm in it. And yes they also preheat the engine but all of todays light duty diesels will light off unassisted down to -20 to -30F anyways and if it’s that cold consistently (like -30) you have a whole bunch of other things that need to be done to the truck to protect it and keep it operational at sustained extreme temperatures, first.
As an engineer, I understand your logic to a point. But just trying to save you some money and complication for things that you maybe haven’t had experience with.

[SkiBumAt50]

Grit dog wrote:
^I get it. Whatever works best for you is what works best.
The big thing with moisture is volume introduced via external stuff (the wet ski gear) and the lack of good air circulation. The forced air furnace (mouse turd burner lol) does a lot to dry the air but trust me. Few people for a few days in cold weather in a TC will be a challenge to keep humidity and condensation under control. You can. It’s not prohibitive, just a bit of a challenge.
You can charge from the truck somewhat efficiently with a good size DCDC charger.
Still, your engineer sense should guide you from over complicating things like plumbing into the truck fuel tank. Besides those little heaters only use like a half gallon of diesel a day or something minuscule. Nothing a little fuel can and 5 min a day can’t keep full.

If I have any control over it I WILL be doing very similar to you again in the future. And having run a couple TCs thru the gamut from driving to AK to outrunning tornados in the Midwest and boonie docking in the Rockies and cascades, what you’re planning is a great setup.

Cheers!

I understand humidity. That's specifically why I was asking about the dehumidify feature on the new Truma AC that Lance is using. I was wondering if it was like my Canadian friends who use their AC in the winter (Run AC in the winter). When I asked my local dealer guy he had no idea. But if it functions that way? That's a game changer.

Worst case I think a small air-to-air heat exchanger could be fabbed to do air exchange and dry out the camper. Making it look good and fit somewhere is the only problem.

[SkiBumAt50]

notsobigjoe wrote:

SkiBumAt50 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
^your last sentence says it all.
You’re not going to do “better” than starting off with a 4 season camper. And with that it’ll handle below freezing temps and running water, to a point. Basement model TCs are decent here if they have or you can improve heated air exchange to the “basement”.
Reasonably the furnace will keep the camper warm down to single digit temperatures. But it will chew thru LP and battery power FAST.
Keeping the water on will just be a test. It’s not magic. But more challenging in below freezing temps. But you get what you put into it.
I was able to use our AF camper with no mods for better heat/air circulation in single digits at night 20s and sunny daytime but that was real close to the practical limit I’m sure.

A little diesel heater is a GREAT idea. And something I would do 100% if planning on any sort of regular cold weather use. And they’re relatively inexpensive. Just need to address the logistics and install.
For efficiency this would be your primary heat and the mouse turd toaster would be the redundant portion since it’s much less efficient.
An engine coolant radiator hookup in the camper is a bad idea. Scratch that one off the list. I suppose it’s possible but in no way practical. Same for the suggestion of plumbing from the truck diesel tank for a little add on diesel heater. Another solution that doesn’t solve a problem but only creates complexity and potential for failure points.

Thanks for the response. Yeah my reasoning for the Diesel heater is to limit what you are saying. One, if I can use diesel to supplement heat for travel, I can extend the time the generator can run. I've also seen some set ups with LiFePo batteries that use the truck to back up or primary charge the systems. My use case is 3 or 4 days at a time with a lot of travel in between so I mainly need 24 hours of boondocking typically.

I get your reluctance on complexity, and maybe I'm looking at it with my Engineer brain and thinking its just a matter of the right bits and pieces. I'll keep it in mind. Of course I'd do it in a way that didn't jeopardize the engine/truck systems (again more complexity).

What exactly is a diesel heater?

There's actually two versions out there. First, is what everyone is kind of discussing. It uses diesel and an air to air heat exchanger to heat. So completely isolated external heating. The second, is used often in large commercial over the road trucks, and can have a variety of functions, including cab heat and engine preheat. It's a diesel water heater that heats the engine coolant.

Living in NY and parking overnight occasionally outside, I'll definitely be putting a diesel preheater on any Diesel truck I own. Some even have a neat app, where you can remotely start the preheat, and when you jump in your truck it starts all nice and warm.

Diesel heat is also common in marine applications, especially hydronic heat. Cirrus uses a system similar to what you find in a lot of sailboats, but LP powered. An example

Truma is a German company, and in Europe most the camper vans are diesel, so there's a lot of tech that already supports it.

Another leading tech provider is Webasto, who make similar systems, even a diesel RV cooktop.

Companies like Earthroamer have embraced it obviously because it eliminates an entire fuel source to depend on.

[notsobigjoe]

mbloof wrote:

notsobigjoe wrote:

SkiBumAt50 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
^your last sentence says it all.
You’re not going to do “better” than starting off with a 4 season camper. And with that it’ll handle below freezing temps and running water, to a point. Basement model TCs are decent here if they have or you can improve heated air exchange to the “basement”.
Reasonably the furnace will keep the camper warm down to single digit temperatures. But it will chew thru LP and battery power FAST.
Keeping the water on will just be a test. It’s not magic. But more challenging in below freezing temps. But you get what you put into it.
I was able to use our AF camper with no mods for better heat/air circulation in single digits at night 20s and sunny daytime but that was real close to the practical limit I’m sure.

A little diesel heater is a GREAT idea. And something I would do 100% if planning on any sort of regular cold weather use. And they’re relatively inexpensive. Just need to address the logistics and install.
For efficiency this would be your primary heat and the mouse turd toaster would be the redundant portion since it’s much less efficient.
An engine coolant radiator hookup in the camper is a bad idea. Scratch that one off the list. I suppose it’s possible but in no way practical. Same for the suggestion of plumbing from the truck diesel tank for a little add on diesel heater. Another solution that doesn’t solve a problem but only creates complexity and potential for failure points.

Thanks for the response. Yeah my reasoning for the Diesel heater is to limit what you are saying. One, if I can use diesel to supplement heat for travel, I can extend the time the generator can run. I've also seen some set ups with LiFePo batteries that use the truck to back up or primary charge the systems. My use case is 3 or 4 days at a time with a lot of travel in between so I mainly need 24 hours of boondocking typically.

I get your reluctance on complexity, and maybe I'm looking at it with my Engineer brain and thinking its just a matter of the right bits and pieces. I'll keep it in mind. Of course I'd do it in a way that didn't jeopardize the engine/truck systems (again more complexity).

What exactly is a diesel heater?

It is my understanding that much like a propane furnace a "diesel heater" (read - actually a furnace) draws combustion air from the outside and vents its exhaust to the outside.

The "flame" heats one side of a "heat exchanger" where cabin air is drawn in and blown out on the other side of it.

The CLAIMED current draw of some of the models available are less than the stock OEM Atwood/Suburban/?? propane furnaces.



- Mark0.

So it does not reduce o2 from the inside. That's pretty awesome, I'm surprised the industry isn't leaning that way.

[mbloof]

notsobigjoe wrote:

SkiBumAt50 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
^your last sentence says it all.
You’re not going to do “better” than starting off with a 4 season camper. And with that it’ll handle below freezing temps and running water, to a point. Basement model TCs are decent here if they have or you can improve heated air exchange to the “basement”.
Reasonably the furnace will keep the camper warm down to single digit temperatures. But it will chew thru LP and battery power FAST.
Keeping the water on will just be a test. It’s not magic. But more challenging in below freezing temps. But you get what you put into it.
I was able to use our AF camper with no mods for better heat/air circulation in single digits at night 20s and sunny daytime but that was real close to the practical limit I’m sure.

A little diesel heater is a GREAT idea. And something I would do 100% if planning on any sort of regular cold weather use. And they’re relatively inexpensive. Just need to address the logistics and install.
For efficiency this would be your primary heat and the mouse turd toaster would be the redundant portion since it’s much less efficient.
An engine coolant radiator hookup in the camper is a bad idea. Scratch that one off the list. I suppose it’s possible but in no way practical. Same for the suggestion of plumbing from the truck diesel tank for a little add on diesel heater. Another solution that doesn’t solve a problem but only creates complexity and potential for failure points.

Thanks for the response. Yeah my reasoning for the Diesel heater is to limit what you are saying. One, if I can use diesel to supplement heat for travel, I can extend the time the generator can run. I've also seen some set ups with LiFePo batteries that use the truck to back up or primary charge the systems. My use case is 3 or 4 days at a time with a lot of travel in between so I mainly need 24 hours of boondocking typically.

I get your reluctance on complexity, and maybe I'm looking at it with my Engineer brain and thinking its just a matter of the right bits and pieces. I'll keep it in mind. Of course I'd do it in a way that didn't jeopardize the engine/truck systems (again more complexity).

What exactly is a diesel heater?

It is my understanding that much like a propane furnace a "diesel heater" (read - actually a furnace) draws combustion air from the outside and vents its exhaust to the outside.

The "flame" heats one side of a "heat exchanger" where cabin air is drawn in and blown out on the other side of it.

The CLAIMED current draw of some of the models available are less than the stock OEM Atwood/Suburban/?? propane furnaces.



- Mark0.

[jimh406]

notsobigjoe wrote:
What exactly is a diesel heater?

It's just a small heater that burns diesel fuel. I think most people use them in tents.

[notsobigjoe]

SkiBumAt50 wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
^your last sentence says it all.
You’re not going to do “better” than starting off with a 4 season camper. And with that it’ll handle below freezing temps and running water, to a point. Basement model TCs are decent here if they have or you can improve heated air exchange to the “basement”.
Reasonably the furnace will keep the camper warm down to single digit temperatures. But it will chew thru LP and battery power FAST.
Keeping the water on will just be a test. It’s not magic. But more challenging in below freezing temps. But you get what you put into it.
I was able to use our AF camper with no mods for better heat/air circulation in single digits at night 20s and sunny daytime but that was real close to the practical limit I’m sure.

A little diesel heater is a GREAT idea. And something I would do 100% if planning on any sort of regular cold weather use. And they’re relatively inexpensive. Just need to address the logistics and install.
For efficiency this would be your primary heat and the mouse turd toaster would be the redundant portion since it’s much less efficient.
An engine coolant radiator hookup in the camper is a bad idea. Scratch that one off the list. I suppose it’s possible but in no way practical. Same for the suggestion of plumbing from the truck diesel tank for a little add on diesel heater. Another solution that doesn’t solve a problem but only creates complexity and potential for failure points.

Thanks for the response. Yeah my reasoning for the Diesel heater is to limit what you are saying. One, if I can use diesel to supplement heat for travel, I can extend the time the generator can run. I've also seen some set ups with LiFePo batteries that use the truck to back up or primary charge the systems. My use case is 3 or 4 days at a time with a lot of travel in between so I mainly need 24 hours of boondocking typically.

I get your reluctance on complexity, and maybe I'm looking at it with my Engineer brain and thinking its just a matter of the right bits and pieces. I'll keep it in mind. Of course I'd do it in a way that didn't jeopardize the engine/truck systems (again more complexity).

What exactly is a diesel heater?

[Grit_dog]

^I get it. Whatever works best for you is what works best.
The big thing with moisture is volume introduced via external stuff (the wet ski gear) and the lack of good air circulation. The forced air furnace (mouse turd burner lol) does a lot to dry the air but trust me. Few people for a few days in cold weather in a TC will be a challenge to keep humidity and condensation under control. You can. It’s not prohibitive, just a bit of a challenge.
You can charge from the truck somewhat efficiently with a good size DCDC charger.
Still, your engineer sense should guide you from over complicating things like plumbing into the truck fuel tank. Besides those little heaters only use like a half gallon of diesel a day or something minuscule. Nothing a little fuel can and 5 min a day can’t keep full.

If I have any control over it I WILL be doing very similar to you again in the future. And having run a couple TCs thru the gamut from driving to AK to outrunning tornados in the Midwest and boonie docking in the Rockies and cascades, what you’re planning is a great setup.

Cheers!

[SkiBumAt50]

JimK-NY wrote:
This whole idea sounds like a nightmare to me. I have to ask, why?

I would not want to take a trip with 2 adults and 3 teenagers jammed into a small RV even in the Summer. In Winter with temps down to the teens, that is likely to be a miserable experience. You have already heard about some of the issues; e.g, trying to heat the RV, moisture and condensation issues, RVs that are really not well insulated or designed for that sort of use. At the end of a ski day, where are you planning on putting all of that wet gear, skies, boots, clothing?

If you do attempt this insanity, I highly recommend you stay at a campground with hookups. At least you will have electricity to run the furnace and you can even substitute space heaters instead of the furnace. Regardless of the insulation, you are going to need plenty of heat so that you can bring in lots of outside air to try to fight the humidity problem.

Again, why even consider this? The cost for a handful of trips a year is going to be much higher than overnight stays in hotels/motels or even nice resorts.

Mobile ski base. That's why.


I don't ski a couple of trips a year. I ski 2-3 times a week. For the add on of $250 bucks I can Ski in several places all over the country, here in NY there are several places in that range within 2-3 hours. Add in 6 hour drive and now you've added even more options.

I also fish on the Salmon River and I've done in it while it was snowing.

I work remotely. My kids are going off to college (one in a 2 years the others shortly after). I travel a lot especially in the NE for my job. They primarily won't be with me 90% of the time, like I said it'd be mostly my wife. We have a lake house for "family time".

I can easily drive to a ski resort, find a place to boondock, ski, work and drive home on a Wednesday for example (I've taken conferece calls at the ski slope and standing in a river). I was in Concord MA last week for business. In the winter there were 4-5 ski slopes I could have easily stopped at.

I don't seem to experience the wetness like you are describing. I drive with my Ski's and boots in the trunk of my car (arm rest pass through) and never have problems with moisture. My ski pants and jacket are generally pretty dry too, although this season we did get a lot of rain. My plan was to put the boots in the tub, and hang the rest on a coat hanger like I normally do. I throw my boots on a dryer when I get home, but don't know if I'd do that when traveling.


If I'm asking too much, I get that. It maybe just me dry camping then. Kenny of All Trades seems to do just fine dry camping. Even an afternoon of heat in the parking lot at a ski resort is fine for my wife. I tend to ski way longer than she does, and if she could kick back and read a book after she's done that would suit her well.

[SkiBumAt50]

Grit dog wrote:
^your last sentence says it all.
You’re not going to do “better” than starting off with a 4 season camper. And with that it’ll handle below freezing temps and running water, to a point. Basement model TCs are decent here if they have or you can improve heated air exchange to the “basement”.
Reasonably the furnace will keep the camper warm down to single digit temperatures. But it will chew thru LP and battery power FAST.
Keeping the water on will just be a test. It’s not magic. But more challenging in below freezing temps. But you get what you put into it.
I was able to use our AF camper with no mods for better heat/air circulation in single digits at night 20s and sunny daytime but that was real close to the practical limit I’m sure.

A little diesel heater is a GREAT idea. And something I would do 100% if planning on any sort of regular cold weather use. And they’re relatively inexpensive. Just need to address the logistics and install.
For efficiency this would be your primary heat and the mouse turd toaster would be the redundant portion since it’s much less efficient.
An engine coolant radiator hookup in the camper is a bad idea. Scratch that one off the list. I suppose it’s possible but in no way practical. Same for the suggestion of plumbing from the truck diesel tank for a little add on diesel heater. Another solution that doesn’t solve a problem but only creates complexity and potential for failure points.

Thanks for the response. Yeah my reasoning for the Diesel heater is to limit what you are saying. One, if I can use diesel to supplement heat for travel, I can extend the time the generator can run. I've also seen some set ups with LiFePo batteries that use the truck to back up or primary charge the systems. My use case is 3 or 4 days at a time with a lot of travel in between so I mainly need 24 hours of boondocking typically.

I get your reluctance on complexity, and maybe I'm looking at it with my Engineer brain and thinking its just a matter of the right bits and pieces. I'll keep it in mind. Of course I'd do it in a way that didn't jeopardize the engine/truck systems (again more complexity).

[jimh406]

JimK-NY wrote:
I would not want to take a trip with 2 adults and 3 teenagers jammed into a small RV even in the Summer. In Winter with temps down to the teens, that is likely to be a miserable experience.

It depends on how much time is spent in the TC. I can't say I enjoy extended periods of time in mine even by myself or with my wife.

However, I made a trip last year for a few days with 6 of us. 3 were grandkids with my daughter. We were outside almost all of the day enjoying Yellowstone. We also stopped at a KOA to let the kids swim for a day. We basically only used the TC for making meals and sleeping when I wasn't grilling. Of course, that means you need somewhere to sit if you are hanging outside like I was part of the time.

Similarly, it depends on where they are wanting to ski. Many ski areas out West (any way) have power at their RV parking for a small fee. Also, there is nothing to say they couldn't stay at a hotel/airbnb etc from time to time.

A TC certainly isn't as roomy as a large Class A or Fifth wheel, but it's not like those wouldn't have issues where there is significant snow. All have to find somewhere to dump etc., and most would eventually need a power hookup. Finally, putting several people in an RV for days without a break wouldn't be my idea of fun either. 😉