Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[Jarlaxle]

Every vehicle with this faulty pump should, on Bosch's dime, get a LIFETIME, unlimited mileage warranty on the entire fuel system...or should be bought back (for full selling price) and destroyed. It really is that simple. Ford, GM, and VW seem to all have been screwed by Bosch's bill of goods...while VW and GM seem to be doing the right thing, Ford is passing along the screwing to their customers.

Someone at Cummins is looking REALLY smart right about now.

[NewsW]

The paper trail made public is rather... um... not nice to read.

[TriumphGuy]

NinerBikes wrote:


Here is the link of correspondence between Bosch and Volkswagen, plenty of it is redacted, yet very easy to read between the lines.

Volkswagen / Bosch correspondence.

From analyzing the fuel from a failed HPFP ... "A direct association between this fuel sample and the mentioned fault pattern cannot be established"

Wow. And it just ... keeps ... going ...

[NinerBikes]

NHTSA Investigations

and enter "EA11003"

At the bottom of the page is a yellow orangish button labeled "Document Search" Press it and it should get you here:

Plenty of Bosch HPFP reading by car badge and failure rates by brand.


Since Volkwagen was the first to claim "Clean Diesel" with this Bosch common rail CP4 HPFP, they have the most "history" with Bosch on the trials and tribulations. VW searched for "gas in fuel", for "bad fuel" for "water" by taking samples of fuel from the fuel tanks of failed Bosch HPFP's and try as they might, telling the public with dead vehicles out there needing complete new fuel systems, they couldn't find what Bosch was pointing the finger at for fuel problems.

Here is the link of correspondence between Bosch and Volkswagen, plenty of it is redacted, yet very easy to read between the lines.

Volkswagen / Bosch correspondence.

[BenK]

From over at one of the other threads on this and say Ninerbike has
summed it exactly right, as this thread has ID'd it months ago

NinerBikes wrote:

dbbls wrote:

onekg wrote:
On goes the one man rant to destroy Ford..Good Luck

X 2

Go to the NHTSA website and enter "EA 11003", then do a search under VW's latest PDF documents with their correspondence with Bosch early on in the HPFP designs and warranty issues dating back to 2008 to the present. BTW, the VW Touareg and the Audi Q7 as well as the Porsche Cayenne, all with V6 3.0 liter TDI common rail motors, use the exact same CP4.2 pump as Ford and GM. BTW that "EA" stands for Engineering Analysis" over at NHTSA... obviously, with NHTSA discovering VW's correspondence with Delphi and their patent with a square shoe'd follower to prevent the roller and piston rotating in the bore and getting out of alignment with the cam, causing hammering, scuffing and eminent failure.

Hammering is only one of the key issues

You have a lot of reading to do to catch up and get up to speed. The problem stems from Bosch... QC problems in manufacture, dirt and not enough cleanliness in assembly, not a fine enough RMS finish in manufacture and in finish on rollers, and on, and on. Bosch quit making them in Germany, too low a quality, and started producing them in Slovakia in 2011 on, with much better results.

Oh my, if true, then design 101 stuff lost to their design team

DLC can be deposited in many ways, but for this kind of final finish,
Plasma (Ion beam) the best. The finish of the base material/surface
critical and several finishing processes needed.

Generally for this level of finish, rounds and flat surface best. A
Cam would be tough (expensive), but you say rollers. So a 'bit' better
but still in a very poor lubrication environment. Both poor lube and
poor cavity lube flow, there is backwater areas with little to no
flow around the cam/follower/roller area

Also says that there is both assembly QC and such high PSI's that anything
getting in-between gouges the DLC or it's mating surface (now non-coated)
to create debris

After you've done your homework, you are then welcome to come back and open your pie hole on the subject matter of Ford, and their lame warranty policy based on their decision to go with a POS designed HPFP by Bosch. It is a flawed design, without a retained roller and follwer, with counting on diesel fuel to lubricate adequately, with running a steel piston in an aluminum bore. A recipe for disaster, with no failure analysis ever performed in the testing stages before release. No other HPFP design has ever had as much collateral damage as a Bosch CP4 HPFP when failing, to the rest of the complete, whole fuel system.

Aluminum is sacrificial (anodic) to iron (cathodic). The voltage
differential (millivolts) dependent on the alloy of both. This is
yet another potential oxide debris.

I would not get in a rocket ship as an astronaut, ever, if it had a Bosch designed fuel pump or fuel system.

BTW, it's only fair to say I have skin in the game, I own 2 current TDI's, one with a CP4.1 HPFP, the other with a CP4.2 HPFP, as in the Ford and GM. VW has extended the warranty on the Touareg to 100k miles, and it includes the HPFP and whole fuel system, in the event of failure. The other is a Passat 2.0 CKRA motor with CP4.1 with solenoid injectors, and the pressure requirements have been dropped to 1600 or 1800 bars max on the HPFP.

I went in to the two cars I have with my eyes wide open. I would strongly recommend, based on what I have observed failure wise, in looking at the data on TDI club, to steer clear of truck stop rude crude grade of diesel brands, and also would stay away from Shell diesel fuel. Both tend to show up with higher rates of HPFP failure on TDI club than other brands of diesel fuel.

YMMV, I would strongly encourage anyone that has a Bosch HPFP failure on their vehicle, regardless of brand or badge, to file a complaint immediately with NHTSA, BEFORE hauling your truck in for being repaired. I would also make the service writer aware that you have done so, and that they will be contacted by NHTSA shortly for some fuel samples and an engineering review of the failed pump and fuel system.

Provide them with a NHTSA file number. Is the one above the correct
one or is there a more specific one?

Sometimes, the owner needs to know more about the fuel system than the service advisor, and needs to adjust their expectations up front. Saying "your fuel system is contaminated" is double talk BS... of course it's contaminated, your sh*tty bosch pump is what contaminated the fuel... pull the metal filings out and identify where they came from, or how about opening up that pressure sensor on your fancy HPFP by removing 2 torx screws, and look at all the metal fillings in that sieve screen sitting there. The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

If you pay for a HPFP repair, demand that all the parts be returned to you. You will need them as evidence for your attorney in the event you decide to file a lawsuit against Ford and Robert Bosch. There are no serviceable parts or 'core charge' parts on your trashed HPFP.

IMHO.... Bosch has done this to themselves, all the manufacturers have been sold a Bill of Goods and empty promises by Bosch, with this******design that functions better as a hand grenade in your fuel system blowing shrapnel everywhere in the whole complete fuel system, than as a High Pressure Fuel Pump. Way way too much collateral damage when this bomb goes off.

Anyone know what other products this design team has responsibility for?

[NewsW]

Well, just link to the 2 threads and post over here.

Mods can also join the threads.

[BenK]

Curious why you guys are still posting on those other two threads ? Thought it would come back to this one

Wonder if those two new guys are here to dilute this thread ?

If not, then the bottom line has this thread split, delinked via dilution



Via SmartPhone...excuse the fat finger typos!

[NewsW]

The reason the auto business does well is the marketing folks engage the emotions and imagination of the people that pay a ton of money for them, investing not just their money, but their egos in a heap of iron that will, in due course, get old, ratty, unreliable, and need to be replaced for a new improved ego booster!

Where egos and emotions don't have as much involvement, like in the purchase of commodities like crude oil, quite different considerations apply.

Some of the equipment I work with are so old and decrepit that it is found in antique shops, but by gosh, it still does the job and does it cheap and better than anything else lying around.

The interesting story for the CP 4 is a group of immensely self confident and capable engineers, who thought they had the world at their fingertips after their most feared competitor threw in the towel (Siemens), and left the field all to themselves, are now finding that their simpler, cheaper design that produced higher pressures are in an engineering sense, brittle.

[FishOnOne]

NewsW wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

ricatic wrote:
New discussion taking place at The Diesel Stop about the 6.7...Kinda funny...the discussion takes on the appearance that this is a recent development. It includes some comments about the new dieselsite product...

I posted my Broken drum story over there when it happened...the thread lasted about an hour and was deleted...I am surprised this one has lasted 3 pages...I posted...any bets on how long it lasts...

Good bye Ford thread at TDS



Regards

If the drama is left out of the discussion, my bet is it will stick around!

OK, lets start betting on the thread.

1 round of drinks (for the 3 of us) that it will be gone by 12/08/12 noon.

I'll drink to that!

[NewsW]

FishOnOne wrote:

ricatic wrote:
New discussion taking place at The Diesel Stop about the 6.7...Kinda funny...the discussion takes on the appearance that this is a recent development. It includes some comments about the new dieselsite product...

I posted my Broken drum story over there when it happened...the thread lasted about an hour and was deleted...I am surprised this one has lasted 3 pages...I posted...any bets on how long it lasts...

Good bye Ford thread at TDS



Regards

If the drama is left out of the discussion, my bet is it will stick around!

OK, lets start betting on the thread.

1 round of drinks (for the 3 of us) that it will be gone by 12/08/12 noon.

[FishOnOne]

ricatic wrote:
New discussion taking place at The Diesel Stop about the 6.7...Kinda funny...the discussion takes on the appearance that this is a recent development. It includes some comments about the new dieselsite product...

I posted my Broken drum story over there when it happened...the thread lasted about an hour and was deleted...I am surprised this one has lasted 3 pages...I posted...any bets on how long it lasts...

Good bye Ford thread at TDS



Regards

If the drama is left out of the discussion, my bet is it will stick around!

[ricatic]

New discussion taking place at The Diesel Stop about the 6.7...Kinda funny...the discussion takes on the appearance that this is a recent development. It includes some comments about the new dieselsite product...

I posted my Broken drum story over there when it happened...the thread lasted about an hour and was deleted...I am surprised this one has lasted 3 pages...I posted...any bets on how long it lasts...

Good bye Ford thread at TDS



Regards

[BenK]

Sounds like 'dry start', just like ICE's

Film strength of the lube very important on dry starts

Is this conformation of #1 ?

#1, poor choice to use diesel as the lube
#2, poor cam/crank cavity design
#3, poor piston to crank/cam design and should be positively captured
#4, poor cavity/routing/valving/etc that creates cavitation potentials

Via SmartPhone...excuse the fat finger typos!

[NewsW]

A post over at TDI pointed out this factoid:

The brand new 2013 Porsche Cayenne Diesel (with CP4)...

Cannot do stop-start (to save fuel).. because...

Porsche wrote:
“It’s a matter of lubricating the high-pressure fuel pumps,” he adds. “They’re delicate.”

Thomas Herold, manager of ?Special Operations R&D

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-first-drive-review


Nice to know the dainty and delicate HPFPs used in the Porsche diesel.

[TriumphGuy]

NewsW wrote:


You are not seeing the discount because refiners are making good money shipping finished product (diesel) to Europe, playing the spread between Brent and West Texas Intermediate.

If the Iranian embargo is not there, Brent price would have equalized with West Texas by now.

I keep making the mistake of not thinking globally. Just because US has supply and refining capacity it doesn't necessarily translate into our fuel prices changing (for the better anyway)...