LT vs ST's - Canadian Tires cries "Illegal!".

[PrivatePilot]

I replaced all 4 tires on my 35' horse trailer in the last 2 weeks - Canadian Tire had some excellent LT tires that were on 50% off "end of line liquidation" discount and the price was too hard to resist even though the horse show season is about done and I wasn't planning to replace the tires until spring.

The first 2 I had replaced at a Canadian Tire reasonably local to me. They initially balked at my choice of LT tires with the usual song and dance about how "You can only use ST tires!". Eventually after some frank discussion with the people there they saw my side of the story - you can't use ST tires on a vehicle, but you CAN legally use LT tires on a trailer. I told them that some RV manufacturers are even shipping their trailers with LT's now for example. Eventually, no problem, they installed them, all happy.

Fast forward to yesterday, I drop off some horses and head to another Canadian Tires store local to me at that moment to get the last 2 tires replaced - the stock on these clearance tires was getting low and if I wanted to get in at the 50% off price I had to get them where I could find them, and the store I was near had 2.

So I get there and the service manager advises me that they will NOT install LT tires on a trailer. I politely start my side of the story again with regards to the legality at which point he exclaims "Yeah, we've dealt with the MTO on all this before and it's not legal so we're not doing it". Eventually we come to a middle ground - I remove the tires myself in the parking lot, roll them in, and they'll "see no evil" and mount the new rubber for me. So, I always carry a hydraulic jack and breaker bar with me when hauling horses, so I do exactly that. Needless to say it's a PITA and takes a lot of extra time.

Eventually, I leave with my 2 new tires (now having a nice matched set of 4 brand new LT's) but I look at the receipt as I'm driving off and I see that they notated the bill more or less "instructed that desired use is not legal, customer self installed, warranty void, blah blah blah".

Now that burned my ass, and I want to take it up with Canadian Tire head office as I'm not the only one I know who was pigeonholed into being forced into buying garbage ST's - another friend was also forced to buy ST's when he needed to replace a spare tire, even though there were far better LT alternatives for his smaller trailer. He didn't argue it and ended up with Carlisle ST's, and we all know how that'll end up eventually.

I need a link or some sort of proof in CMVSS laws that using LT tires on a trailer is NOT illegal as so many Canadian Tire stores seem to want to believe. I can find plenty of reference to ST's being "for trailer service only", which is all fine and dandy and is the very point which thereby declares them illegal for vehicle usage, but nothing that specifically indicates LT's are legal for trailers...although arguably the absence of "LT's are illegal for trailer service" should suffice. Heck, even P rated tires are OK with a 9% derate so long as they can legally carry the weight.

At the very least I'd like to get my warranty reinstated, if nothing else.

[JaxDad]

soren wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

Mind you yet another franchise told me they were going to have to charge for installing a battery (sold as "includes installation") because the battery wasn't under the hood.

Find a ten or fifteen year old Passat, or New Style Beetle, or even a Dodge Intrepid. Now spend a while finding the battery under the wiper motor, or under the back seat, or in the front wheel well, behind the fog lights. Now decide if you want to spend 30 minutes to an hour swapping a battery out for free?

If I was a 'shade tree' mechanic doing a battery replacement for a widow I know from church I MIGHT agree with you.

Since this was a national auto repair franchise where the first 3 questions, entered into the computer as answered, were make, model and year? ZERO chance I'd agree.

Heck, I can look up where the battery is with my smartphone in seconds.

Besides, let's face it, there's no free lunch anymore, the "free" installation cost is built into the price.

[BFL13]

I know this is off-topic, but now the OP himself has revealed he is mixed up between "axle rating" for the axle by whoever made that, and the "axle rating" of the vehicle like when you put it on the scales. ( No doubt helped by the term "Gross Axle Weight Rating" 🙂 )

EG, Dexter makes a "5,200 lb" axle. That is its "axle rating"-- 5,200 lbs. My truck has axles rated at 10,000 something lbs. GM specs. Look it up.

You put two of those 5200s on a trailer and the axles can hold 10,400 lbs.

But the GAWR for that trailer depends on what tires it has, when the total max weight load for those tires is less than the axles' rating or any other suspension component's rating (like mine is 8,600 lbs for four Cs). As is usual. Same with the truck.

That can include the wheels you mount the tires on. Some have weight limit specs and some also have a PSI limit for the rims. You need strong enough wheels load limit, that can also take the PSI needed for the tire to be able to carry that weight, for the tires chosen that will meet or exceed the trailer's official GAWR on its sticker.

If people are still stuck on this, start a thread in Tow Vehicles or one of the other forums. 😞

[PrivatePilot]

BFL13 wrote:
When did it become law that the tires have to be rated "to carry the weight of the axle" using the axle's weight "rating" as stated above?

Our truck has a rear axle rated at over 10,000 lbs. But the RGAWR is 6,084 lbs, which is what the two E tires can take at 80psi as singles.

OK, I know we're trying to get the thread back on track, but I missed the window of opportunity to respond to that.

First, I worded my statement poorly on the axle rating thing, but it's still not recommended to put tires on an axle that are not able to carry the rated weight of that axle. On something like a horse trailer (as in my scenario) where the axle loading can vary by potentially thousands of pounds depending on empty vs loaded, pony vs Clydesdale, it's possible you could be under the rating of an under rated tire when empty, but then grossly exceed it when loaded.. On something like an RV where the load is pretty much the same +/- 1000# or so, and especially when manufacturers are commonly putting axles barely rated to carry the GVWR of their trailers to begin with, there's a very real possibility that it would result in overloaded tires.

BFL13 wrote:
Our truck has a rear axle rated at over 10,000 lbs.

Your truck does NOT have a GAWR of 10,000 pounds. Your GVWR (the ENTIRE weight of the truck including any load carried on/in it) is 9200 Pounds - Your RAWR (Rear axle GAWR basically) is 6084#, and in that era trucks GM was known for putting tires on that couldn't even carry that, further potentially limiting the carrying capacity of the rear axle in 5'th wheel / GN configurations.

[Community Alumni]

BFL13 wrote:
......

Anyway we are getting off-topic from the OP and just "talking trucks" now 🙂

Yup, let's get this back on track.

[BFL13]

spud1957 wrote:

BFL13 wrote:

spud1957 wrote:
I'd love for you to show me your vehicle weight rating label that states your truck's rear axle is rated at 10,000lbs. That label is all TC cares about. Otherwise I'll stick to the 6084.:)

The tires have the lowest weight rating so they set the label's GAWR.

Not necessarily true. My OEM 18" tires are rated at 3420lbs but I still have a 6100lb rating per my label. It's a weird rating system. What it ends up is a tire retailer will not install tires that have a lower rating that's on the "official" axle rating label.

So that means you have a component that can carry less weight than the tires and that component is setting the GAWR of 6100.

No idea, maybe the 4WD mechanisms? You could find out from Ford what the specs are for those various parts.

I fully agree the tire store should not put lower rated tires on than the GAWR. The vehicle owner might load up to the GAWR and that would be more than the new tires are rated for.

Anyway we are getting off-topic from the OP and just "talking trucks" now 🙂

[spud1957]

BFL13 wrote:

spud1957 wrote:
I'd love for you to show me your vehicle weight rating label that states your truck's rear axle is rated at 10,000lbs. That label is all TC cares about. Otherwise I'll stick to the 6084.:)

The tires have the lowest weight rating so they set the label's GAWR.

Not necessarily true. My OEM 18" tires are rated at 3420lbs but I still have a 6100lb rating per my label. It's a weird rating system. What it ends up is a tire retailer will not install tires that have a lower rating that's on the "official" axle rating label.

[BFL13]

spud1957 wrote:
I'd love for you to show me your vehicle weight rating label that states your truck's rear axle is rated at 10,000lbs. That label is all TC cares about. Otherwise I'll stick to the 6084.:)

The label says 6084 GAWR. The truck's axle rating comes from its specs according to GM. I don't have a link handy.

ISTR the 2003s had about 8,600 for the rear axle on a half- ton and it was not "floating" whatever that means. The 3/4 gas has floating 10 something and the 3/4 Diesel and the 1 tons had 11 something axle ratings. I suppose they are all more now since the 2011s came out.

There are also GM weight rating specs for the springs and other components that make up the "axle system" The tires have the lowest weight rating so they set the label's GAWR.

[spud1957]

I'd love for you to show me your vehicle weight rating label that states your truck's rear axle is rated at 10,000lbs. That label is all TC cares about. Otherwise I'll stick to the 6084.:)

The axle rating on the label is the rating for the axle and all it's components as stated in the regulation. The axle in my ruck is the same as a 1 ton but I still have a 3/4 rated axle on my label.

Done.

[BFL13]

spud1957 wrote:

BFL13 wrote:

PrivatePilot wrote:
Gary, read the entire thread. If Canadian Tire ..........

The only legal requirement is that the tires are capable of carrying the weight for the application they are being used for, AKA they must be rated to carry the weight the axle they're to be attached to is rated for. In my case the tires are each rated for just under 2700 pounds each and are mounted on an axle rated to carry less than that, therefore they are well within their legal required ratings.

...........

When did it become law that the tires have to be rated "to carry the weight of the axle" using the axle's weight "rating" as stated above?

It is true that the tires have to carry the load put on them, but that has nothing to do with the axle rating. In fact the GAWR can be based on the tires max load limit while the axle is rated to carry much more.

When you go on the scales and get your "axle weight" that is to get the load on the tires. Nothing to do with "axle weight rating"

Our truck has a rear axle rated at over 10,000 lbs. But the RGAWR is 6,084 lbs, which is what the two E tires can take at 80psi as singles.

Meanwhile our trailer has a pair of 5,200 lb axles but its GAWR is 8,600 lbs, which is max for four C tires at 50 lbs.

If I put stronger tires on the vehicle it would not change its legal GAWR. There are other components involved such as the springs. GVWR also involves the frame strength and I think, the stopping the brakes can do. If you modify your truck AFAIK you can go through a process to get its weight ratings legally changed, but otherwise its legal ratings stay the same.

BFL13, not sure if this is what you are disputing but this is taken from Transport Canada's CMVS110 definitions:

GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating, in kilograms, means the value specified by the vehicle manufacturer as the
load-carrying capacity of a single axle system, as measured at the tire-ground interfaces. “The GAWR shall not
exceed the rated load carrying capacity of, but not limited to, the tires, rims, suspension, axle mounting hardware
and axles.”

So it looks like it says, the axle rating cannot be greater than the tire's rating (among other components). Not sure if you meant to say your rear axle is rated for 10,000lbs or did you mean to say GVWR? You have a 3/4 ton so your rear axle is rated at 6084. From a Transport Canada perspective, your rear axle is rated at 6084 by GM, per your door label. So your tires' load capacity has to be equal or greater than 6084.

The "axle rating" is for the axle itself as its own chunk of metal. It is not the same thing as your "axle weight rating" for when on the scales. Your "axle weight" on the scales must not be more than the GAWR.

Read the rule again. The "axle system" sets the GAWR and one of the components will be the "weakest" and the GAWR is taken from what the weakest component can do. Look at your tires and see the "max load at xx PSI for a single. Your GAWR will be twice that weight. The tires are what sets the actual GAWR.

The trailer is designed so the axle systems can carry the designed weight. They choose an axle (Dexter 5200 lb rating ones, eg) and how strong to make the frame etc, then they need tires, so they choose a tire so four and the pin can carry the weight at trailer GVWR. Once they have the tire, they make the trailer GAWR equal to its rating times the number of tires. I don't know any trailers that have GAWR less than what their tires can hold because the axle is the weakest component, but I suppose it could happen.

The trailer's GVWR may be more than its GAWR where the pin is expected to carry some of the weight. The truck's two GAWRs total more than the truck's GVWR so that is different.

Yes the truck axle is rated for over 10,000 lbs. If the truck were a Diesel that axle would be rated at over 11,000 same as a 1-ton's. ( I have no idea why the axle is rated for so much more than what the tires can do)

The trailer has two Dexter 5200s so the total there is 10,400. But GAWR is 8,600. Newer Komforts with those same 5200s came with Ds instead of Cs like ours. The GAWR on the newer ones with the Ds is 10,160--which is four Ds worth. Still not 10,400 though. I just put Ds on ours but its official GAWR is still 8,600.

Be silly to put Es on it, since the new weak component would then be the axles still rated for 10,400.

[spud1957]

BFL13 wrote:

PrivatePilot wrote:
Gary, read the entire thread. If Canadian Tire ..........

The only legal requirement is that the tires are capable of carrying the weight for the application they are being used for, AKA they must be rated to carry the weight the axle they're to be attached to is rated for. In my case the tires are each rated for just under 2700 pounds each and are mounted on an axle rated to carry less than that, therefore they are well within their legal required ratings.

...........

When did it become law that the tires have to be rated "to carry the weight of the axle" using the axle's weight "rating" as stated above?

It is true that the tires have to carry the load put on them, but that has nothing to do with the axle rating. In fact the GAWR can be based on the tires max load limit while the axle is rated to carry much more.

When you go on the scales and get your "axle weight" that is to get the load on the tires. Nothing to do with "axle weight rating"

Our truck has a rear axle rated at over 10,000 lbs. But the RGAWR is 6,084 lbs, which is what the two E tires can take at 80psi as singles.

Meanwhile our trailer has a pair of 5,200 lb axles but its GAWR is 8,600 lbs, which is max for four C tires at 50 lbs.

If I put stronger tires on the vehicle it would not change its legal GAWR. There are other components involved such as the springs. GVWR also involves the frame strength and I think, the stopping the brakes can do. If you modify your truck AFAIK you can go through a process to get its weight ratings legally changed, but otherwise its legal ratings stay the same.

BFL13, not sure if this is what you are disputing but this is taken from Transport Canada's CMVS110 definitions:

GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating, in kilograms, means the value specified by the vehicle manufacturer as the
load-carrying capacity of a single axle system, as measured at the tire-ground interfaces. “The GAWR shall not
exceed the rated load carrying capacity of, but not limited to, the tires, rims, suspension, axle mounting hardware
and axles.”

So it looks like it says, the axle rating cannot be greater than the tire's rating (among other components). Not sure if you meant to say your rear axle is rated for 10,000lbs or did you mean to say GVWR? You have a 3/4 ton so your rear axle is rated at 6084. From a Transport Canada perspective, your rear axle is rated at 6084 by GM, per your door label. So your tires' load capacity has to be equal or greater than 6084.

[BFL13]

PrivatePilot wrote:
Gary, read the entire thread. If Canadian Tire ..........

The only legal requirement is that the tires are capable of carrying the weight for the application they are being used for, AKA they must be rated to carry the weight the axle they're to be attached to is rated for. In my case the tires are each rated for just under 2700 pounds each and are mounted on an axle rated to carry less than that, therefore they are well within their legal required ratings.

...........

When did it become law that the tires have to be rated "to carry the weight of the axle" using the axle's weight "rating" as stated above?

It is true that the tires have to carry the load put on them, but that has nothing to do with the axle rating. In fact the GAWR can be based on the tires max load limit while the axle is rated to carry much more.

When you go on the scales and get your "axle weight" that is to get the load on the tires. Nothing to do with "axle weight rating"

Our truck has a rear axle rated at over 10,000 lbs. But the RGAWR is 6,084 lbs, which is what the two E tires can take at 80psi as singles.

Meanwhile our trailer has a pair of 5,200 lb axles but its GAWR is 8,600 lbs, which is max for four C tires at 50 lbs.

If I put stronger tires on the vehicle it would not change its legal GAWR. There are other components involved such as the springs. GVWR also involves the frame strength and I think, the stopping the brakes can do. If you modify your truck AFAIK you can go through a process to get its weight ratings legally changed, but otherwise its legal ratings stay the same.

[RinconVTR]

Here’s the problem I have. You guys are getting all caught up in marketing ploys with some use of LT on trailer specific tires. LT’s for trucks is not the same as those LT’s for trailers, when referring to trailer specific sizes.


Goodyear’s official statement per PSB #2014-01 January 9th 2014;

Light Truck (“LT”) designated tires do not have the same load carrying capacity as ST tires. If LT tires are used on trailer applications, the inflation pressure and/or tire sizing will need to be adjusted to match the load carrying requirements of the trailer.


As for the G614 RST, it is specifically, and only designed for “demanding 5th-Wheel And Heavy-Trailer Applications”.

This tire requires a special high-load capacity wheel and high-pressure tire valve.

Heck, just look at it! Would you put that tire on any truck driven on the road? And as if you have an option…it only comes in ONE SIZE. Get the point? Trailer only tire.



Kuhmo 857 is a real sneaky bugger, but again designated primarily for trailer use in the USA. “Light Truck” is sometimes called out for marketing, but NOT “LT”. Using this to tire specifically to claim LT tires are “approved” for trailer use, it a huge stretch, and simply not accurate.

“The Radial 857 is available in European-metric commercial sizes. The 857's primary application is to be mounted on a trailer. With its solid commercial construction, the 857 provides the durability and reliability you need from a trailer tire.”

“For commercial light truck, transporter, van and trailer.”

But just like the G614 RST’s, try to find these on commercial trucks in the USA. They are hard to find any sizes beyond certain trailer tire sizes.

And look at the sidewall, NO “LT” designation on the 857's.



Carlisle does a great job explaining things, even if you don’t like their tires;

– Trailer tires are designed for use on trailer axle positions only.
– Do not use P Passenger or LT Light Truck automotive tires
on trailers.
– Do not use ST trailer tires on passenger cars or light trucks.

– An "LT" designation, when shown on a trailer tire size specifies load
range only, it is not designed for use on light trucks.





Maxxis FAQ question (they make actual LT truck tires FYI);

Can I use a light truck tire on a trailer?
Maxxis recommends using only ST tires on trailers.



Michelin excludes LT tire warranty coverage if used on a trailer;

“This service does not cover the repair or replacement of your tire. Service
applies only to motorized passenger and light truck vehicles and specifically
excludes trailers,….”


US Dept of Customs and Border protection - AN INFORMED COMPLIANCE PUBLICATION APRIL 2014

The prefix and/or suffix letter, when present, often designate a particular type of vehicle for which the tire is designed. The prefix or suffix is assigned to a tire by the manufacturer based upon design, construction and tolerances. These designations are voluntary and not always reliable. For example, a tire might bear an LT prefix but actually be designed for use on some heavy-duty trailers, heavy-duty light trucks or box
vans.

[soren]

JaxDad wrote:

Mind you yet another franchise told me they were going to have to charge for installing a battery (sold as "includes installation") because the battery wasn't under the hood.

Find a ten or fifteen year old Passat, or New Style Beetle, or even a Dodge Intrepid. Now spend a while finding the battery under the wiper motor, or under the back seat, or in the front wheel well, behind the fog lights. Now decide if you want to spend 30 minutes to an hour swapping a battery out for free?

If I told my daughter to stop by the local parts store to get wiper blades with free installation, I would expect them to do the two minute job on her Toyota, without issue. I wouldn't expect them to grab a six foot step ladder and do the same to my motorhome.

[JaxDad]

shum02 wrote:

PrivatePilot wrote:
.

FWIW I also discovered last week that Canadian Tire franchises charge different amounts for tire balancing - most I called were around $17 per tire, the store in Bowmanville Ontario told me that "it depends on how much weight is needed, it starts at ~$17 but can go up if your tire needs a lot of weight to balance". Huh?

Seriously?! 1st I've heard of that. Really......how much does a few chunks of tire weights cost that they would charge for it?????

Will have to look at my receipt but I'm pretty sure I paid less than that per tire for mounting and balancing at the Burlington store. Like I said, they do a decent job here doing mounting and balancing.

I ran across this at another tire franchise, they claimed it was because more weights equalled more work.

Mind you yet another franchise told me they were going to have to charge for installing a battery (sold as "includes installation") because the battery wasn't under the hood.