adding fireplace

[poorboy]

thinking about adding electric fireplace in cabinet below the tv. I only have 30 amp not 50 amp.
my questions are, has anyone done this, and are their places in the fuse box to add this? my brother has a factory built-in fireplace, but trips the breaker if he uses the fireplace and microwave at the same time. I have almost average intelligence, so I am comfortable doing the carpentry and electric install myself, but would like input from anybody that has done this.

[myredracer]

I installed 3 permanent recessed electric heaters totaling 2,000 watts. I used a current sensing relay for demand control so that when the main 30 amp supply current gets above a preset adjustable level, the heaters are automatically disconnected. We can run coffee maker, toaster, MW and other loads and never trip a 30 amp breaker.

The limitation on breaker spaces in RVs doesn't exactly make sense. I installed a recessed vacuum unit and needed a dedicated 15 amp breaker and for the heaters, a 20 amp breaker. The only way around it is using tandem breakers which I have zero issue with doing.

For a dedicated heater of any kind, I'd install a separate dedicated receptacle for it wired directly back to the panel.

[myredracer]

DFord wrote:


Another BTW: RVs aren't covered by the NEC. You'd never get away using one of those cheapo RV receptacles in your house - and their production shouldn't be allowed. They're horrible!

RVs are most definitely covered by the NEC - ARTICLE 551- RECREATIONAL VEHICLES AND RECREATIONAL VEHICLE PARK covers all electrical requirements for RVs as well as RV parks. Here is an older free version of the 2005 edition NEC

There is nothing wrong with the SCD (self-contained device) in RVs (also used in mobile homes). The problem is those not knowing how to work with them and how to correctly terminate the wires on them, including the factories. Under UL standard 498 they must meet very stringent testing and every bit as stringent as testing for residential type side/back-wired recepts.

[ktmrfs]

George3037 wrote:
My TT is 30A and came with the fireplace option. I've been driveway camping the past couple weeks and run the fireplace at night. We've still had some nights where temps drop into the high 30's and the furnace comes on occasionally to assist the fireplace but not as much as it would without. I can see by my EMS-HW30C that amp draw varies between 10-16A depending on other devices I have turned on. I am plugged into a 30A pedestal. If the OP's trailer is connected to a 15 or 20A pedestal he may trip a breaker at times but I have not on my 30A dedicated circuit.

Unless they recently upgraded the EMSHW30C, don't rely much on the EMS current readout. The EMSHW30C current reading is notoriously inaccurate. The mfg will even admit it. It can read high, low or near accurate on the same load. I've seen mine read as low as <20A when drawing near 30A and as high as 35A when the known draws is 15A.

[George3037]

My TT is 30A and came with the fireplace option. I've been driveway camping the past couple weeks and run the fireplace at night. We've still had some nights where temps drop into the high 30's and the furnace comes on occasionally to assist the fireplace but not as much as it would without. I can see by my EMS-HW30C that amp draw varies between 10-16A depending on other devices I have turned on. I am plugged into a 30A pedestal. If the OP's trailer is connected to a 15 or 20A pedestal he may trip a breaker at times but I have not on my 30A dedicated circuit.

[DFord]

The fireplaces draw a max of 1500 watts. Some have a HI-LOW switch that cuts them back to 800 watts on low.

After trying to teach my wife to be sure the water heater was off before using the microwave on our last motorhome, I wired in a switch that either powered on or the other. Problem solved. They both used the same breaker with that modification.

[Dusty_R]

How many amps will the electric fire place draw, and what size breaker feeds the AC?

Dusty

[poorboy]

thanks for the input folks, the tapping in to the a/c sounds like a good idea. don't know if there is an outlet inside the cabinet or not.

[ktmrfs]

DFord wrote:
ktmrfs, I agree with you on the value of "backstab" electrical outlets. Letting the RV industry get by with "rube goldberg" wiring is a shame. Any outlet installed without a box is a hazard but every RV out there has outlets with those backstab outlets. Even wires secured under screws can become a problem when stressed (not to mention the problems of aluminum wires). The area making contact in the backstab outlets is nothing compared to wires secured by screws - they're asking for problems using them. Good job replacing yours with the real thing in boxes!

And the RV outlets are also very common in mobile homes. In fact it wouldn't suprise me if the RV industry adopted them from the mobile home industry! One of the big issues with backstabs is with inductive loads. The high inrush current and the voltage spike on disconnect can end up turning the "V" small contact point into a high resistance point that then starts to arc after repeated connect/disconnect cycles. Then it can become a fire hazard.

[DFord]

ktmrfs, I agree with you on the value of "backstab" electrical outlets. Letting the RV industry get by with "rube goldberg" wiring is a shame. Any outlet installed without a box is a hazard but every RV out there has outlets with those backstab outlets. Even wires secured under screws can become a problem when stressed (not to mention the problems of aluminum wires). The area making contact in the backstab outlets is nothing compared to wires secured by screws - they're asking for problems using them. Good job replacing yours with the real thing in boxes!

[ktmrfs]

DFord wrote:
BTW: The cabinet under my TV came with a receptacle in it that is the only outlet on the breaker for that circuit. I hope you're lucky enough to have the same setup.

Another BTW: RVs aren't covered by the NEC. You'd never get away using one of those cheapo RV receptacles in your house - and their production shouldn't be allowed. They're horrible!

I agree. The RV backstabs are far from ideal at all, but take a look at some of the house backstab outlets that are ok by NEC code. IMHO they are worse than the RV backstabs. I'm referring to the backstabs with a v shaped single contact point, not the "backwire" that use a screw and plate to capture the wire.

And the self contained backstab outlets are approved for mobile homes for sure, AFAIK they are also UL listed and approved for stick built homes. Although I have never seen one in a stick built home.

And yes, I did replace the RV outlets with pro grade backwires outlets in retrofit boxes.

[DFord]

BTW: The cabinet under my TV came with a receptacle in it that is the only outlet on the breaker for that circuit. I hope you're lucky enough to have the same setup.

Excuse me! RVs may be covered by the NEC but that doesn't make the backstab outlets without an enclosure any safer to use. They're just a piece of cheap junk unfit for use anywhere. A $0.50 cheapo duplex outlet in an enclosure from the one the big box store would be much better and safer way to go - especially for a high draw circuit.

[ktmrfs]

yes I see no reason it can't be done. However, my understanding of NEC code indicates several things to consider.

1) since it is a dedicated appliance it needs either it's own breaker or combined with another load and a load shed device. That is when the heater is on all the other loads are off. AC would be a good circuit for the load shed combo.
2) NEC code limits the number of breakers on a 30A panel (5?). Notice that's how most 30A trailers are wired. So in theory you are violating NEC code by adding additional breakers. That said, it agrivates me to no end to have the charger combined with the other 120V circuits, so I violated code and added another breaker to put those two on seperate breakers.

If it was me I'd add another breaker for the fireplace and not mess with a load shed device.

[DFord]

We had a fireplace in our last motorhome. Of all the appliances in the motorhome, the fireplace got the most use. We used it almost every night to keep the chill off, Really miss it now but not willing to give up the storage cabinet. If you can find one with HI/LOW (800 watts/1500 watts) heat, you'll have no problem running on 30 amps. In reality, you can only draw about 25 amps without heating up the circuit breaker and causing it to trip. We always opt for a 30 amp site because of the cost difference and have no problem. We'll run on electric water heater and one space heater on low with no problem. It was hard to train the wife to turn off the water heater if she wanted to used the microwave or her hair dryer but (most of the time now) she remembers and we're okay. If it's a colder night, we'll turn off the water heater and turn on two space heaters with one on low and the other on high and we still have enough power to run the refrigerator on electric and keep snug using our electric blanket. We've got an inverter/charger I set as if we only have 5 amp service. It takes longer to top of the batteries that way but that's never been a problem and the battery LED charge indicator always turns green.

[BB_TX]

I added one in the cabinet below our TV years ago. We do have a 50 amp rig, but have not tripped the breaker when on 30 amp service. Yet.

I just tapped into a nearby outlet that had little else on it and added a new outlet behind the fireplace. And that breaker has never tripped either.