GCWR vs GVWR question

[drillagent]

I know the weight topic has been beat to death on this forum, but I may have just come to a realization and after searching, I can't find the answer to my question. The weight capacities of my TV and 5th wheel are below. So here it goes.

From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs. Everyone talks about the GVWR and the pin weight.

Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs? I guess the real question is, if the GCWR is below the 23,500lbs weight rating, but because of the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6,000lbs GAWR, am I actually considered overweight when it comes to STOPPING the vehicle? When it comes down to it, just because I may be below the 10,000lbs GVWR, I've still got another 10,000lbs of trailer to stop. And if you do the math, with an 18% pin weight (based on Keystone website calculations) of the 15,200lbs TV capacity, there is no way you can be under GVWR unless you have a 160lbs driver with no passenger. So, does the GVWR really matter when I'm towing a 5th wheel or just when I'm hauling a load of rock without a trailer?

I have a 2012 F250 Diesel. All weights are per 2012 Ford towing guide or actual scale weight.

Truck weight w/o passengers 7100
GVWR 10,000
Max 5th Wheel towing 15,200
GCWR 23,500
Rear Axle GAWR 6,000

Looking at purchasing 2010 Montana 3750FLF. All weights per Keystone website.
Dry weight 12201
Hitch weight 2175
Carry Capacity 3474

[goducks10]

To the OP, the RAS will raise the rear 1" unloaded. It will not be adjustable. If after you install it and you don't get enough lift then you are SOL. I have used both and airbags are way better. 100% adjustable. Not sure why you would be leery about air bags. Guys run them for years without problems.
The RAS is quick and easy to install that's for sure, but the ride is a little stiffer IMO. Bags take a couple hrs but give a better ride when loaded. JMHO

[BillB3857]

That's what both the RV dealer and I thought. Furd held on to the fact that you can't just use the individual axle ratings to see if your truck is overloaded or not. You MUST go by the GVWR, which is less than the sum of the two axle ratings. Just shows to go ya that you can't believe everything that you read. The day after I traded the Furd off, since the Furd zone manager told me that I bought the wrong truck, I got a call from the Furd dealer service manager. He wanted to know if I had already traded the truck. When I told him I had, he said I had a perfect case for a "buy back". My problem was I had a brand new RV I couldn't use and the buy back process could take close to a year with no guarantee that it would really happen. I simply moved on and will tell my story to anybody willing to listen.

[JIMNLIN]

OP says wrote:
After being left holding the bag by Furd, when I got my Chevy I made a trip to the scales again, loaded to the max, and worked up this chart.

Scale Ticket Information
Empty Loaded
Steer Axle 4200 4620
Drive Axle 3140 5560
Truck Weight 7340 10180
Trailer Axles (Combined) 8040
Gross Combined Weight (GCW) 18220

Looking at Fords Fleet specs IMO your F250 has a 5250 FAWR and a 6100 RAWR. Your loaded and hooked up axle weights are well under the max. Looks like a good match there.

Your pin weight is the difference in the the trucks loaded rear axle (5560 lbs) and the truck unloaded rear axle (3140 lbs) = 2420 lb pin weight.

Looks like a well matched combo.

[JIMNLIN]

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

See my reply and Fleet Fords clicky I made on page one of this thread.
Looks like Fords simply sizes the F250/F350 SRW brakes to 7000 RAWR which is the highest RAWR.
It makes sense to simply manufacturer 7k brakes and install them on the all the Super Duty 3/4 and one ton SRW trucks rear axles with over a dozen different GVWRs.

[Me_Again]

drillagent wrote:


Unfortunately, I don't have the camper package on my F250. However, I intend on getting the Roadmaster Active Suspension system put on. I'm a little leery of air bags and I've heard good things about the active suspension. I'll also look into getting an extra spring put on the truck too. I have to admit, I'm getting a little scared about getting the Montana 3750FL the DW wants. Especially with the Yellowstone/Glacier National Park trip we're planning.

Why don't you go to a good spring shop before installing band aids(RAS)?



Do your current rear tires have the capacity to handle the pin weight of the Montana? Chris

[drillagent]

spud1957 wrote:

drillagent wrote:

spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

F350 has an overload spring, a 4" rear block as opposed to a 2" on the 250 and a larger GVWR when you select 18" tires. That's it. All other components are identical, EVEN THE AXLES!!!!

If you have an F250 with the camper package, you get the same overload springs along with a rear sway bar.

Unfortunately, I don't have the camper package on my F250. However, I intend on getting the Roadmaster Active Suspension system put on. I'm a little leery of air bags and I've heard good things about the active suspension. I'll also look into getting an extra spring put on the truck too. I have to admit, I'm getting a little scared about getting the Montana 3750FL the DW wants. Especially with the Yellowstone/Glacier National Park trip we're planning.

[BillB3857]

After being left holding the bag by Furd, when I got my Chevy I made a trip to the scales again, loaded to the max, and worked up this chart.

Scale Ticket Information
Empty Loaded
Steer Axle 4200 4620
Drive Axle 3140 5560
Truck Weight 7340 10180
Trailer Axles (Combined) 8040
Gross Combined Weight (GCW) 18220

Trailer Weight (GCW Minus Empty Truck Weight) 10880
Trailer Pin Weight (Trailer Weight Minus Trailer Axle) 2840
Trailer Pin Weight (Truck Loaded Minus Truck Empty) 2840

Trailer Axle Rating (each) 5200


Trailer Tire Capacity (3042 X 4) 12168
Truck Front Tire Capacity (2430 X 2) 4860
Truck Rear Tire Capacity (2150 X 4) 8600

Rating Loaded
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) 11400 10180
Front Axle Weight Rating (FAWR) 4800 4620
Rear Axle Weight Rating (RAWR) 8550 5560

edit(Sorry about the tabs. Looked good on entry but somehow the site garbles the tabs/spacing. It even looked OK when I opened it to edit and try to straighten it out.)

[spud1957]

drillagent wrote:

spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

F350 has an overload spring, a 4" rear block as opposed to a 2" on the 250 and a larger GVWR when you select 18" tires. That's it. All other components are identical, EVEN THE AXLES!!!!

If you have an F250 with the camper package, you get the same overload springs along with a rear sway bar.

[drillagent]

spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

[spud1957]

Sorry.

[avvidclif1]

spud1957 wrote:

Okie1 wrote:
I for one would be interested in seeing the documentation you are talking about from "Ford"..

From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs.

If the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs?

Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR nor GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

Don't confuse the issue with facts.

[JIMNLIN]

NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".


Same with the trailer axle mfgs.

[spud1957]

Okie1 wrote:
I for one would be interested in seeing the documentation you are talking about from "Ford"..

From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs.

If the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs?

Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

[Buck50HD]

It seems to me that most F250 owners use air bags because they sit completely level unloaded. Any weight you add to the rear is going to make it squat. The F350's have 2" thicker spacer between the spring and axle so it will take 2000+ lbs to level it out.