vehicle weight ration to trailer weight?

[debraindi]

I'm looking at my cat scale receipt from this month .All is good but the gross weight is 21460 the trailer axles is 10420 combined the steer axle and drive axle is 11040.I have more weight on the truck with the pin weight so the truck is heaver then trailer or is there another way to look at it for control and stopping the trailer?

[JIMNLIN]

LOL.... Looks like your the one embarrassed by your lack of experience and now your looking for a argument.
An I embarrassed ? No....your off topic opinions and questions don't embarrass me. Just the opposite. I'm actually more embarrassed for you as its evident you have no experience with roadside dot or a rolling through scale house and what is or isn't enforceable.

Commercial or non commercial ?? I doubt you know the actual difference.
I sure do as I've done both with the same trucks.

[AH64ID]

JIMNLIN wrote:

They can try to "enforce" anything they want but if it's not law it is not enforceable.

Really ??
I see you have never had a roadside with dot or have you ever rolled through a scale house....I'm done.

Really? Show me what allows them to enforce anything they want to!

Talked to several DOT guys at scales..., they work to enforce laws, not make up rules for fun!

It also sounds like you are confusing commercial with non-commercial.

You never did answer the questions I asked earlier... Did the answers embarrass you?

[JIMNLIN]

They can try to "enforce" anything they want but if it's not law it is not enforceable.

Really ??
I see you have never had a roadside with dot or have you ever rolled through a scale house....I'm done.

[AH64ID]

JIMNLIN wrote:
LOL ...all I can say is you better listen to the DOT guys as their the ones that will interpret and enforce regulations. '

They can try to "enforce" anything they want but if it's not law it is not enforceable.

I have also met the DOT guys that know the law and surprisingly it is just as it reads.

[JIMNLIN]

LOL ...all I can say is you better listen to the DOT guys as their the ones that will interpret and enforce regulations. '

[AH64ID]

JIMNLIN, Do you still live in Oklahoma?? I am looking thru Oklahoma statues and laws and what I am finding does not agree with your statement. There is nothing in there about a private, or commercial, vehicle needing to adhere to the GVWR or GAWR (it does talk about municipal refuse vehicles thou) that I can find.

Copy/paste does not work.. but basically 20K per axle on single axle vehicles. OK Chap 14 doesn't even cover tire limits where Idaho does.

http://www.dps.state.ok.us/ohp/chapter14.pdf

Additionally, if other state laws are a concern, Federal CFR 567.7 allows individuals or corporations to alter vehicles and their GVWR/GAWR.

Do you have a link to something different for Oklahoma? Or have you moved? Not saying you are wrong about OK I just cannot find what you referenced.

Listening to DOT guys will only go so far. I have had local DOT guys tell me that GAWR is legally binding but they go on to say it was hear-say and have never read the laws. If you show them the laws their tune changes.

One thing I have found in Idaho is that their registration rules/booklets does not cover non-commercial weights. Reading the rules would make one think that all non-commercial registration are the same when they are not. The standard non-commercial/passenger registration is only good for 8,000lbs. Many pickups are heavier than that without a trailer, yet the DMV does not ask or advertise the weight limit with standard registration. There are then non-commercial "truck" plates that let you choose 8,001-16,000lbs or 16,001-26,000lb GCW. So with standard plates I could get an overweight ticket and be within GVWR/GAWR/tires/single axle limits. My point is that the practices and procedures need to match the state law/rules but they do not always.. that is where the fun begins in court if it ever comes to that.

Commercial laws are also often different than non-commercial and shouldn't be discusses as the same without verification. What I do with a non-commercial pickup at 26K may not be legal with a commercial hauler at 26K.

[JIMNLIN]

GAWR tells you a minimum brake rating, but it doesn't tell you the actual brake rating (generally speaking).

Having towed "legally" commercially for living for over 11 consecutive years, eight as a owner and three as a operator, and gone through dozens of scale houses at 28k-32k gross combined in a eight state area around my state this is the only thing we can agree on which is just as I mentioned the GAWRS are a minimum in my first comment on the brake rating issue.

[AH64ID]

Tire load numbers come from, wait for it, the tires 🙂

My state (and every other one I have researched, maybe 5 or 6) only cares about registration and tire loading. Now that doesn't mean you couldn't get a ticket for loading a Ranger to capacity with a DRW conversion and LRH tires... it just would be for something different.

The only two places manufacturers axle weight rating are mentioned in Idaho is in the glossary and when talking about TAG axles. A TAG axle is the only axle that must be at/under the mfgr GAWR, otherwise game on (within reason).

http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title49/T49CH10SECT49-1001.htm

I am 100% legal going down the road at 7300lbs on my rear axle with a door sticker of 6200 RAWR. I am registered for 26K GCW and have tires that allow for a RAW of 9K.

Your post above was not about where brake ratings come from it was where axle ratings come from.

GAWR tells you a minimum brake rating, but it doesn't tell you the actual brake rating (generally speaking). The front/rear differences I mentioned above with higher RAWR than front show that alone. My pickup is a great example. 5200/6200 or 5200/9350 when equipped as a DRW. The front brakes are larger than the rear brakes so we know the brakes on the front are helping stop the rear axle load. We know that based on the inverse axle rating to brake size and the percentage of braking that occurs by the front axle. Another example is trailer brakes. The brakes found on my 5200lb axles are the same brakes found on 6K, 7K, and some 8K axles.

There are also blurbs from Ford, (and I recall the other being Dodge but have had a hard time finding it) that state their brake ratings are around GVWR plus the 2,000lbs allowed for a trailer without brakes. But is that for cars? LD trucks? HD trucks?

Then again it is really here nor there as all this does is show most of us have a LOT more brake than rating, which is not a bad thing.

[JIMNLIN]

AH64ID wrote:
Manufactures of LD and HD pickups make different claims about what their brakes are rated for, but it really is here nor there as axle weight rating isn't a legally binding rating in any state that I familiar with.

DOT doesn't care about axle ratings they care about tires and registration, as long as your under 20K per axle.

Where do you think dot will get tire load numbers from on different size vehicles ??

Registration ??
My and other states have no weight registration for our private use trucks. Like a truck makers GVWR...its another meaningless number for determining axle/tire load limits. We simply carry weight up the lessor of a steer or drive axle or the trailers axle(s). My dot guys say they don't care how much weight a out of state truck carries on its registration form ...... it still can't exceed the lessor of the trucks axle tire load ratings with out a permit.

My point here is about brake ratings and where those numbers come from according to NHTSA and other sources I mentioned in my reply above.

[AH64ID]

Manufactures of LD and HD pickups make different claims about what their brakes are rated for, but it really is here nor there as axle weight rating isn't a legally binding rating in any state that I familiar with.

DOT doesn't care about axle ratings they care about tires and registration, as long as your under 20K per axle.

[JIMNLIN]

Truck brakes are not determined by its GVWR.

NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating".

and even more from other sourse;
RMA

• GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating (for each axle) -
The maximum weight rating that the components
(tires, rims/wheels, brakes, springs, and axle) of
each axle are designed to support. This is
determined by the lowest design capacity of any
component. In other words, if the wheels have the
lowest design capacity of any component on that
axle, installing tires with a higher load capacity
does not increase the GAWR. By regulation, the
tire load rating times the number of tires on that
axle must equal or exceed the GAWR for that axle.

and same for the trailer;
Dexter axle;

**The Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) of your running gear is determined by the lowest rated component in the assembly. The capacity of the wheel, tire, axle, brake, springs/rubber and hub are all considered.**

This is one reason dot will allow the sum of the axle ratings as a trucks GVW or a truck/trailers GCW as the brakes on each axle system will stop its rated load.

[Terryallan]

ScottG wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ScottG wrote:
Just read about this in some mag recently..(TL?) According to that article, the trucks tow ratings include it's ability to stop what ever weight of trailer it is rated for. They do this so if the trailer brakes fail, the truck can still safely stop it.
Seems reasonable.

IF that were so. Every truck pulling a trailer on the road would be over loaded. The truck's brakes are only rated to stop the truck's GVWR, Not the GCVWR.


And again if that were so. Trailer brakes would not be required by the DOT. And the folks who make brake controllers would go out of business.

You'll note that I did not say the write-up suggested that the trucks brakes replace the trailers brakes - only that it must be able to stop the combined load IF the trailers brakes fail.

The problem with this thread is no one (including me) has quoted and authoritative source for their opinion and this is as much of a SAE spec. as it is a DOT matter.

IF the truck brakes were rated to stop the GCVWR. you wouldn't need trailer brakes now would you?

[ScottG]

Terryallan wrote:

ScottG wrote:
Just read about this in some mag recently..(TL?) According to that article, the trucks tow ratings include it's ability to stop what ever weight of trailer it is rated for. They do this so if the trailer brakes fail, the truck can still safely stop it.
Seems reasonable.

IF that were so. Every truck pulling a trailer on the road would be over loaded. The truck's brakes are only rated to stop the truck's GVWR, Not the GCVWR.


And again if that were so. Trailer brakes would not be required by the DOT. And the folks who make brake controllers would go out of business.

You'll note that I did not say the write-up suggested that the trucks brakes replace the trailers brakes - only that it must be able to stop the combined load IF the trailers brakes fail.

The problem with this thread is no one (including me) has quoted and authoritative source for their opinion and this is as much of a SAE spec. as it is a DOT matter.

[AH64ID]

Trailers may have brakes rated at axle rating and so may Semi's but pickups do not have brakes related to axle ratings.

Case in point is the larger front brakes on modern pickups with lower AWR than the rear axle. Pikups rate their brakes on the GVWR and generally overshoot on the HD pickups.

Look at the 2010 and 2015 Ram DRW trucks. The 2015 has a higher FAWR/RAWR/GVWR and the brakes didn't change.

Ram 4500/5500 use the same brakes front and rear with vastly different axle ratings.

Even trailers are subject to variation. Al-Ko uses the same brakes from 5200-7000 and even on some of their 8000lb axles. So does a 8K axle have 5200lb brakes or a 5200lb axle have 8K brakes? Or is it just the brakes they use?