Canadian prices too high on used units? Cheaper to import?

[cvbdsl]

Ok, this applies to us living north of the border. I'm starting to get frustrated with a lot of Canadian dealers, especially in Ontario. Long-winded post so please bear with me.

When I'm looking (as I'm seriously doing this week) I use the NADA low and average retail as aguide- stress guide and 30% added for the CAD dollar difference. However dealers seem to be adding 40-50% on to their prices with a take it or leave it attitude.

So my question is, is it getting to the point where I can bring a MH into Canada cheaper myself?

Here is my thought process on how the dollars work out. Same theoretical motorhome in Canada and US, priced at $100K USD in the US and should be priced at $130K in CAD using NADA as a guide.

If I buy in the US I loose any sales tax credit on my trade so I'm thinking it works as follows;

Buy in the US (using an exchange rate of 30%)
Asking price $100K USD
Maybe get $45K USD in trade (taking $5K of off NADA low)
I pay $55K USD or or roughly $71,500 CAD
Add sales tax of $16,900K CAD (13% on the full value in CAD - $130K)
Total cost before any misc fees for import $88,400 CAD

Buying in Canada ideal price
So asking price $130K CAD (assuming realistic markup)
Maybe $45K CAD in trade (even though avg NADA is more like 58K)
I pay $85K CAD plus
sales tax on $85K = $11,505 CAD
Total cost should be = $96,505 CAD


OK, a $8100 CAD difference cheaper in the US based on NADA average.
(The trade in value above in CAD is based on current discussions with lowball dealers offer not NADA average with 30% )


Based on what I've been looking at Canadian dealers are not using NADA average (though they actually say they use it), actual asking price on the MH in Canada for a $100K USD MH is usually around $150K, so potentially I can save $20K going to the US right of the bat.

Actual example on a MH I asked a dealer about. NADA plus 30$ put it at $179K CAD, dealer told me it was $220K CAD. Where did the extra $40K come from? Oh yeah, he told me a tag cost $80K more than non-tag, even used.

So is anyone else thinking of going this route? Also any idea on the import cost? I know there will be at least a couple of grand extra.

Any flaws in my thinking?

Ok, end of my rant.

thanks

Chris

[gonesouth]

Where do I start? I have owned three motorhomes bought in the US.....two I imported and registered in Nova Scotia, one I registered in NC. The US one was insured by Progressive and the others were insured by companies registered to sell insurance in NS.

I don't care what the rules are in your province or in Manitoba....I don't live there and I never will, and I certainly won't be registering a motor home there. So don't bother posting about Manitoba if I'm your target reader.

First, let's talk about selling a Canadian motorhome to a US buyer:
The process is to present yourself and the unit to a US Customs officer at a port of entry. Usually at an airport or a marine port, although a land border crossing is OK, though not recommended as it's a time-consuming process and the US Customs agents there are usually busy. I've found that bothering LEO's or quasi-LEO's with 'time-wasters" is not generally productive. Your Choice. Bring your documents showing purchase, insurance, title, etc. The agent will look up when you entered the US and will want to know why you want to import it to the US (so I can sell it). He needs to go to the rig and check VIN and maybe mileage and the manufacturer's plates for GVRW and date of manufacture. He goes back to the office and then processes paper for 10 minutes or so, then gives you a form showing it has been imported to US. Buyer will need this to register it in US. Simple as that, assuming it was originally a US unit. If it was made somewhere else take it home and sell it in Canada.

Importing a US made unit to Canada: You are importing a Vehicle, so you must abide by the Vehicle Import Rules. JaxDad wants to import a house, so he needs to go by the house import rules....good luck finding them. If you are importing a vehicle you don't care about house rules.

First step is see if there are restrictions on importing the vehicle:
a)units over 15 years old are admissable
b) units under 15 years old...check the RIV list to see if unit is admissable (admissability depends on what CSA and DOT rules the unit meets and whether the manufacturer filed the paperwork to get this model approved......eg. Country Coach didn't and so only Country Coaches over 15 years old are admissable)
the listing will also list modifications needed for import. Be careful as the mods required can be expensive.
c) Once you've bought your new unit, the title and bill of sale need to be submitted to US Customs at the border crossing you will be using 72 hours prior to crossing. Some allow you to fax them the papers, some want it in person. Some accept copies, some want originals.
d) Appear at US Customs to get your clearance to leave the US. They will want to check the VIN and Manufacturer's plate and will already have checked for liens....there can be no liens on it when exported. They will give you a Form showing the unit has been officially exported from the US. Save this to show US Customs in case you later want to sell it in the US and to show Canadian Customs when you get to their offices in 5 minutes.
e) go to the vehicle Import office at Canadian Customs, with all your paperwork. They will physically inspect for VIN, mileage, Manufacturer's plate, etc. They will charge about $225 as the import inspection fee for RIV and 5% GST. After paying, you can drive it home.
f) next step is to do whatever mods are required: KM markings on speedometer, .daytime running lights, etc,
g) take it to Canadian Tire for an import inspection. This should be included in the import inspection fee, so have your receipt. They will inspect for whatever mods are required according to the RIV list or less if they are lazy. After inspection they will stamp your form from Customs and you are done here.
h) get your provincial MVI if your province has one.
i) go to the DMV and register the vehicle. You will have to pay the provincial portion of HST or PST% and whatever fees you need to register it.

j) put on the plate
k) enjoy!

Notes:
1. You are not allowed to drive a US registered vehicle, unless it's owned by somebody with an agreement with Canada Customs (eg.Uhaul) that allows that.
2. Not all states allow temporary registrations. For example Massachusetts does not, seizes the vehicle and since an unregistered vehicle can't be insured, you are in violation of their laws requiring Public Liability insurance to be on the road. Penalties include immediate imprisonment! So plan to go around Mass. Meanwhile, Connecticut also doesn't do temporary registrations either. But you can borrow the existing plate with a written permission and drive it home with that. My advice is to plan your route and call the state police/ highway patrol in each state you will go through to verify the rules. I would also tell your insurance company your plans regarding temporary paper plates or borrowed plates when you arrange insurance for the trip home.

My Experience is that you will save from $10,000 up by doing this. If you don't need to bring it to Canada, look at the rules and sales tax rules for registering and keeping it off-season in the US and you may save significantly more, and perhaps avoid your annual provincial inspection.

[shum02]

cvbdsl wrote:

If you get a dealer convicted, I'll apologize and buy you a beer!

FYI I have not found one reference pertaining to Ontario and motorhomes imported from US that is crystal clear in what is required as you state.

Me either.

I knows lots of people all over Ontario who have imported used vehicles and new/used RV's from NY and Michigan without ANY issue what so ever. Nothing has blown up, no one was arrested and all units are successfully on the road and insured.

CSA approved, yea right. Take a look around your house these days and see how much stuff from Cdn Tire and Wally World that are only UL rated. That would include a lot of gear on my RIVA Cda KZ. If my insurance company is good with it, so am I.

[JaxDad]

JaxDad wrote:
Speaking of building inspection, despite me posting the below link about 5 times now you've yet to offer anything to refute it.

Manitoba Life Safety Regulations

The very first sentence says;

"The Manitoba Office of the Fire Commissioner has a responsibility to ensure that any recreational vehicle for sale or rent in the Province of Manitoba complies with the Canadian Standards Association construction standard CAN/CSA Z240 requirements for mobile housing and recreational vehicles."

moisheh wrote:
What does he care if thousands are breaking the law ( they are not!).

Moisheh

Wow, you can argue single-handedly, and still lose the argument...... that's impressive!

[moisheh]

cvbdsl: Be careful what you ask for. He will bombard you with a bunch of malarkey. I really do not understand his motive. All the posters are just asking for some info. He disagrees which is fine. But after awhile you have to move on. What does he care if thousands are breaking the law ( they are not!). He will never quit. But thousands of units are imported every year and no one has any problems. Some provinces have even changed their regs so the RVIA sticker becomes equivalent to a CSA. Of course he will disagree. cvdbsl: Enjoy your nice Dutch Star!!

Moisheh

[cvbdsl]

"Speaking of building inspection, despite me posting the below link about 5 times now you've yet to offer anything to refute it. Is that because you've admitted to selling non-compliant motorhomes numerous times?

Manitoba Life Safety Regulations

Why do you resort to ad hominem attacks instead of discussing things like an adult?"


Getting tired of this.It has nothing to do with my original post! Please feel free to start your own thread on this topic that is dear to your heart.

I DO NOT LIVE IN MANITOBA! Not everyone in Canada lives in Manitoba either. According to you all Ontario dealers are selling illegal motorhomes! How about reporting them instead of repeatedly telling us?

If you get a dealer convicted, I'll apologize and buy you a beer!

FYI I have not found one reference pertaining to Ontario and motorhomes imported from US that is crystal clear in what is required as you state.

[JaxDad]

moisheh wrote:
Jaxdad does it again. He writes well. Almost convincing you he knows something. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and BC have Government auto insurance.

Oh, so because the Provincial government provides auto insurance they're exempt from Federal law? Wow. That's so whacky it's laughable.

moisheh wrote:
Does he report his neighbors if they park an RV on the street. Does he call building inspection if he sees a fence that is too high. Get a life.

Moisheh

Speaking of building inspection, despite me posting the below link about 5 times now you've yet to offer anything to refute it. Is that because you've admitted to selling non-compliant motorhomes numerous times?

Manitoba Life Safety Regulations

Why do you resort to ad hominem attacks instead of discussing things like an adult?

[JaxDad]

dezolen wrote:
Having owned 4 rv's never once has my insurance broker(Different companies to boot)or for that matter my polices stated that insurance was dependent on CSA certification. To top it off one of my "CSA" certified trailers which I used to own had many non CSA cert parts on it's plumbing system.

Oh, so because your insurance broker never asked it's not the case? Now THERE'S solid logic. What's your next leap of faith? You exceeded the speed limit every day for a week and didn't get a ticket so there must not be a speed limit?

BTW, the CSA Z240 standard, required by law in Canada, is not dependent on 'parts' it's a systemic thing. A15 amp breaker trips at 15 amps, it doesn't matter if it's CSA or UL certified as safe.

dezolen wrote:
I wonder if this unrealistic poster ever camps in the US with all the so called dangerous rv's that are not CSA cert??

Another whacky attempt (but failed) attempt at logic.

The speed limit in the US is posted in miles, in Canada it's posted in kilometres, and often very different, 60 vs 75, two different countries, two different sets of rules. CSA Z240 vs NFPA 1192, two different Countries, two different set of rules.

RIV only allows SOME vehicles into Canada. Why? Because Canada has different rules and some vehicles don't comply.

Why is the elementary school level stuff so hard for some people to understand?

[moisheh]

Jaxdad does it again. He writes well. Almost convincing you he knows something. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and BC have Government auto insurance. When I bought my last motorhome ( and others) the Government insurance ( Autopac) provided me with a paper plate and insurance so I could bring it to Canada. It was temporarily registered and insured! I don't remember how long it was good for but I think 10 days. It was enough time to drive it home, get an inspection and do the paperwork. I think the 2 other Provinces do this as well. So once again Jax is wrong. No insurance agent would ever ask you if your unit was CSA . That is just bull. I too am convinced he is a dealer. If not why does he constantly get into these discussions. Does he report his neighbors if they park an RV on the street. Does he call building inspection if he sees a fence that is too high. Get a life. What do you care if someone imports a vehicle and you don't agree with the way it was done. The rest of us are just giving our knowledge of the procedure. It is obvious that 90 % of posters are not interested in your input. It helps no one. Waste of bandwidth.

Moisheh

[dezolen]

Some people love to state a lot of mis truths on this site. Having owned 4 rv's never once has my insurance broker(Different companies to boot)or for that matter my polices stated that insurance was dependent on CSA certification. To top it off one of my "CSA" certified trailers which I used to own had many non CSA cert parts on it's plumbing system. I wonder if this unrealistic poster ever camps in the US with all the so called dangerous rv's that are not CSA cert?? I sure hope not!
ps JaxDad which dealer are you working for? Bet it's one that only sells for full MSRP and does not like any competition.

[JaxDad]

shum02 wrote:
How did they NOT know he was not driving it North?

I had asked my insurance broker about this and was told I had approx 5 days to get a rig(RV) back to Canada from the US with temp insurance. I have no idea if that applies to motor vehicles but I would not be surprised if I asked that I could get that as well. As I said, it was temp insurance. The unit had to be in Canada in less than a week.

He said he only told them 'I bought a motorhome and need insurance on it to drive it home.' He doesn't remember telling them it was in the US.

If the vehicle is a Canadian vehicle, driving it home from the US is no problem, but NOT if it's a US vehicle. The broker can say whatever they like, the law is the law.

[shum02]

JaxDad wrote:

shum02 wrote:


Dwelling? Take it up with your insurance .

Well there's another issue. A buddy of mine, who by coincidence lives not too far from you, got a nasty surprise when his insurance broker told him he couldn't have insurance on his new-to-him motorhome he'd just imported from the US until he had it certified as CSA Z240 compliant.

When he objected and pointed out they'd ALREADY insured it (for the drive home) they apologized and stated he was lucky he'd not had an accident since the insurance on it was VOID. Under the Insurance Act of Canada it's not legal for Canadian insurance co's to offer insurance on vehicles owned and / or registered outside of Canada.

How did they NOT know he was not driving it North?

I had asked my insurance broker about this and was told I had approx 5 days to get a rig(RV) back to Canada from the US with temp insurance. I have no idea if that applies to motor vehicles but I would not be surprised if I asked that I could get that as well. As I said, it was temp insurance. The unit had to be in Canada in less than a week.

[JaxDad]

shum02 wrote:


Dwelling? Take it up with your insurance .

Well there's another issue. A buddy of mine, who by coincidence lives not too far from you, got a nasty surprise when his insurance broker told him he couldn't have insurance on his new-to-him motorhome he'd just imported from the US until he had it certified as CSA Z240 compliant.

When he objected and pointed out they'd ALREADY insured it (for the drive home) they apologized and stated he was lucky he'd not had an accident since the insurance on it was VOID. Under the Insurance Act of Canada it's not legal for Canadian insurance co's to offer insurance on vehicles owned and / or registered outside of Canada.

[shum02]

JaxDad wrote:

shum02 wrote:
Check these.

Government of Canada - Importing a Vehicle

Registrar of Imported Vehicles

More facts, less rumors and internet lore.

The problem Shum, and IMHO the MAIN problem with all those types of links, is that RIV (a private FOR profit corporation under contract to the government) and the Federal DOT website don't mention that this info ONLY applies to vehicles, or in the case of this group, the VEHICLE portion of a DWELLING on wheels.

This adds LOTS of confusion and leads people to believe that because the DOT says it's OK as a VEHICLE it must also be automatically OK as a DWELLING also.

This is NOT the case.


Kind of like saying "I have a drivers license and my car has license plates so I can legally operate my car as a taxi." Nope, you would still need a taxi plate and a taxi license.

Dwelling? Take it up with your insurance

Know lots of people especially when we were at par that bought in the US it is not rocket science

Will more than likely do it myself Local dealers think their rigs are made of gold.

[toolttime]

Don't forget the cost of freight dealer has to pay to get it there. Make sure the rv is on the admissible list with transport Canada . Not all rv's can e imported.
Better hurry up before the free trade deal is tossed out. Right now no duty on everything coming into Canada made in the U.S. Who knows what the future will be.

[JaxDad]

shum02 wrote:
Check these.

Government of Canada - Importing a Vehicle

Registrar of Imported Vehicles

More facts, less rumors and internet lore.

The problem Shum, and IMHO the MAIN problem with all those types of links, is that RIV (a private FOR profit corporation under contract to the government) and the Federal DOT website don't mention that this info ONLY applies to vehicles, or in the case of this group, the VEHICLE portion of a DWELLING on wheels.

This adds LOTS of confusion and leads people to believe that because the DOT says it's OK as a VEHICLE it must also be automatically OK as a DWELLING also.

This is NOT the case.


Kind of like saying "I have a drivers license and my car has license plates so I can legally operate my car as a taxi." Nope, you would still need a taxi plate and a taxi license.