RVing in the winter

[Cmccain13]

Hey all, so I'm a month in to living in my RV and loving it, the thing is I want to start roaming around out of Texas and I'm nervous about colder temperatures. There are a few places I want to go to but the temperatures will get into the high 20's during the night but get back up to the 45's ish during the day. When occupying the rig should I be worries about pipe freezes and stuff? what should I keep in mind? or should I even be concerned since it wont always be sub zero temps?

[m37charlie]

Thanks. I do all subarctic RV trips in May-September. My long trips have been Europe-Siberia-Mongolia in summer, Australia all seasons (north in winter, south in summer). Next big, post Covid trip will be Southern Africa. All trips to places with water mainly in liquid state.

[Yosemite_Sam1]

m37charlie wrote:
Winter camping:
My Unimog/Unicat camper has a 5kw /17000btu/h hydronic heater system just for the camper. And a separate 9kw for cab/engine and the camper can be sealed from the cab with a removable plate. I have figured out the effective thermal radiation 2 ways: by calculation (the walls and floor and roof are 0.44W/m2-degK, windows about 6 times that, vent cutouts are covered with insulation), and by comparing home power draw to average outside temperature, which I can follow on a daily basis. I currently live with only 3 cats and my daily routine is invariant since I put myself under house arrest March 8. In the winter I heat the camper with 2 thermostatically controlled Hornet 700w AC aircraft heaters hooked up via the camper to grid power. They are set at ~41F in the coolest areas, the average interior wall temperatures are 41-46F by IR measurements. The purpose is to avoid freezeups at all costs even though the camper is winterized.
The results are very close by the 2 methods: 30-33W/degC temperature gradient. Since the 2 heaters put out 1400w together, they can keep the camper comfortably above freezing down to about -38C or-36F. The diesel powered Webasto therefore could theoretically keep the interior at 77F down to -140F, assuming 80% efficiency. But, even Arctic diesel fuel freezes up at -50F. I have a 500w AC heater pad on the 40gal “day tank” (total capacity 162 gal) but it would be very hard to start the diesel generator at very low temperature. Even with a hair dryer or aircraft heater inside the housing. And if camping off the grid my house batteries hold only 10kwh (840ah). Solar panels are useless in an arctic or subarctic winter for obvious reasons (I have 650w nominal).
Let’s now talk about winter camping in cold subarctic places. In the summer of 75 I backpacked south to north across the Brooks Range to the Arctic coast. It was very pleasant except we got real hungry because we ran out of food early and subsisted on 40M&Ms a day each, plus blueberries and 1 ptarmigan that I shot through the neck with a 30-06. For at least 4 days.
In early February 78 I flew into Arctic Village as a newly minted MD on a medical field trip to the village clinic. The village is now practically embedded in ANWR. The local people (Athabaskans) were happy to see me and immediately took me on a snow machine trip 20 miles up and back up the East Fork of the Chandalar River. The still air temperature was -52F. I was dressed in bunny boots, multiple layers, gloves under giant beaver mittens, a marten hat and a huge down parka with a wolverine ruff. I rode standing on the back of a sled. It still felt chilly.
Winter of 79 or 80 I went fly-in caribou hunting on the Alaska Peninsula near Pilot Point. We camped in a summer type nylon backpacking tent for 2 nights at-25F. The nights were a bit chilly as well. We got 2 caribou however.
Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

Thank you and no thank you (lol) for making us envious of your charmed RVing life.

I am still thinking of RVing to visit all the national parks in Alaska.

And definitely it. won't be in a Unimog. I might have to wait very long to have the content provided with EV charging once I get my Cybertruck -- or just drop this dream Ring off my bucket list.

Anyway, excellent story and definitely NatGeo worthy.

[pianotuna]

M37Charlie,

My 256 watts of solar do about 225 watt-hours of charging on Dec 21 @ 50.448742, -104.508949 (Regina, Sk)

That is enough to keep up with self discharge.

[m37charlie]

Winter camping:
My Unimog/Unicat camper has a 5kw /17000btu/h hydronic heater system just for the camper. And a separate 9kw for cab/engine and the camper can be sealed from the cab with a removable plate. I have figured out the effective thermal radiation 2 ways: by calculation (the walls and floor and roof are 0.44W/m2-degK, windows about 6 times that, vent cutouts are covered with insulation), and by comparing home power draw to average outside temperature, which I can follow on a daily basis. I currently live with only 3 cats and my daily routine is invariant since I put myself under house arrest March 8. In the winter I heat the camper with 2 thermostatically controlled Hornet 700w AC aircraft heaters hooked up via the camper to grid power. They are set at ~41F in the coolest areas, the average interior wall temperatures are 41-46F by IR measurements. The purpose is to avoid freezeups at all costs even though the camper is winterized.
The results are very close by the 2 methods: 30-33W/degC temperature gradient. Since the 2 heaters put out 1400w together, they can keep the camper comfortably above freezing down to about -38C or-36F. The diesel powered Webasto therefore could theoretically keep the interior at 77F down to -140F, assuming 80% efficiency. But, even Arctic diesel fuel freezes up at -50F. I have a 500w AC heater pad on the 40gal “day tank” (total capacity 162 gal) but it would be very hard to start the diesel generator at very low temperature. Even with a hair dryer or aircraft heater inside the housing. And if camping off the grid my house batteries hold only 10kwh (840ah). Solar panels are useless in an arctic or subarctic winter for obvious reasons (I have 650w nominal).
Let’s now talk about winter camping in cold subarctic places. In the summer of 75 I backpacked south to north across the Brooks Range to the Arctic coast. It was very pleasant except we got real hungry because we ran out of food early and subsisted on 40M&Ms a day each, plus blueberries and 1 ptarmigan that I shot through the neck with a 30-06. For at least 4 days.
In early February 78 I flew into Arctic Village as a newly minted MD on a medical field trip to the village clinic. The village is now practically embedded in ANWR. The local people (Athabaskans) were happy to see me and immediately took me on a snow machine trip 20 miles up and back up the East Fork of the Chandalar River. The still air temperature was -52F. I was dressed in bunny boots, multiple layers, gloves under giant beaver mittens, a marten hat and a huge down parka with a wolverine ruff. I rode standing on the back of a sled. It still felt chilly.
Winter of 79 or 80 I went fly-in caribou hunting on the Alaska Peninsula near Pilot Point. We camped in a summer type nylon backpacking tent for 2 nights at-25F. The nights were a bit chilly as well. We got 2 caribou however.
Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

[pnichols]

TwistedGray wrote:

TwistedGray wrote:

pnichols wrote:
our two large AGM batteries have no problem running the furnace for only 15-20 minutes, total, out of each hour at those inside and outside temperatures

Perhaps the key is a second battery. As I understand, the electric blower dragons out within a few short hours without connection to shore power or running the genny.

I'll quote myself : )

The 19G manual states:

HOW IT (FURNACE) OPERATES
Use the wall thermostat to turn the furnace on. Air is heated by burning propane. A blower using 12-volt power from the auxiliary battery circulates the hot air through the motorhome.

WARNING: If the auxiliary battery is not being charged via the chassis engine, a campground connection or the generator, the furnace blower will discharge it in two to three hours and then the furnace will shut off. If this happens, you may recharge the battery by running the chassis engine for about 45 minutes.

That would take a very small single battery in an 19G to only run it's furnace for only "two to three" hours ... plus remember that the furnace should/will not run continuously under anything but EXTREMELY COLD conditions.

Here again is my earlier answer to what you quoted for yourself above:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the one battery is, say, a 100 amp hour battery and you start the evening and night with having, say, 80 amp hours of it's capacity left ... then you have about 40 amp hours max that you should run it down overnight.

If your furnace is sized right, and your coach interior is "made night-time small enough" by blocking off some sections, then the furnace might only run about 1/3 of the time each hour. If the furnace blower and it's control circuitry only consumes about 6 amps when the furnace is running, then each hour it would drain about 2 amp hours (1/3 of 6) from the battery.

If you run the furnace off the single battery for around 12 hours each evening and night, then 12 hours times 2 amps per hour means that you've used 24 amp hours out of the battery, come morning (not counting some other real low amperage draws from the battery during that time).

Since you had about 40 usable amp hours in the battery at the beginning of the evening ... you should make it through the night on the single battey.

The above analysis assumes that you start out with a battery in good condition and bring the battery back up to full capacity before each night - using some combination of solar plus generator or solar plus engine idling.

The most worry-free solution for cold weather drycamping is to have as much good RV battery capacity on board as you can fit and afford. I consider our two 12V Group 31 deep cycle 115 amp hours each AGM batteries (for a total of 230 amp hours) as about the minimum capacity for my particular piece of mind. When drycamping I charge them up to around 90% about every other day using one of my five different non-solar ways to charge them.

[pnichols]

I recently read everything these folks wrote about winter drycamping in their 5'er, which also applies to motorhomes, and they have some excellent tips on how to do it (be sure to read their other cold weather camping articles high-lighted in blue):

https://roadslesstraveled.us/how-to-stay-warm-in-an-rv-survival-tips-for-winter-rving/

[Booner]

TwistedGray wrote:

TwistedGray wrote:

pnichols wrote:
our two large AGM batteries have no problem running the furnace for only 15-20 minutes, total, out of each hour at those inside and outside temperatures

Perhaps the key is a second battery. As I understand, the electric blower dragons out within a few short hours without connection to shore power or running the genny.

I'll quote myself : )

The 19G manual states:

HOW IT (FURNACE) OPERATES
Use the wall thermostat to turn the furnace on. Air is heated by burning propane. A blower using 12-volt power from the auxiliary battery circulates the hot air through the motorhome.

WARNING: If the auxiliary battery is not being charged via the chassis engine, a campground connection or the generator, the furnace blower will discharge it in two to three hours and then the furnace will shut off. If this happens, you may recharge the battery by running the chassis engine for about 45 minutes.

I have found the above to be true, running the house battery down -IF- you run the furnace on high. So I don't run the furnace on high.
I'll first warm up the motorhome with the truck engine heater (which also charges the house batteries), then turn the engine off and start the furnace. Once the heater is putting out hot air, I move the thermostat slider down to just above the level where it turns the furnace off. So far, running the furnace this way, the house battery has not been run down overnight. I'll admit that I haven't tried this when it's been really cold, only when it's been slightly below freezing, so my results may be different if I was using my motorhome if it were really cold. In the morning, I'll turn the thermostat up to high, and start the truck up again to help with the heating and recharge the battery.

[TwistedGray]

TwistedGray wrote:

pnichols wrote:
our two large AGM batteries have no problem running the furnace for only 15-20 minutes, total, out of each hour at those inside and outside temperatures

Perhaps the key is a second battery. As I understand, the electric blower dragons out within a few short hours without connection to shore power or running the genny.

I'll quote myself : )

The 19G manual states:

HOW IT (FURNACE) OPERATES
Use the wall thermostat to turn the furnace on. Air is heated by burning propane. A blower using 12-volt power from the auxiliary battery circulates the hot air through the motorhome.

WARNING: If the auxiliary battery is not being charged via the chassis engine, a campground connection or the generator, the furnace blower will discharge it in two to three hours and then the furnace will shut off. If this happens, you may recharge the battery by running the chassis engine for about 45 minutes.

[TwistedGray]

bobndot wrote:
Additional 12v draws are:
Fridge, CO detector, Radio .

I use 2 portable CO detectors and have installed a toggle switch on the OEM and another toggle on the radio. The only overnight draw is the fridge and the furnace.
I also added 24x24 interlocking foam pads on the floor which seems to make the floor feel warmer. I too use insulating material to cover the windows at night. I think that helps a lot especially when a bed is up against a window.

I thought about using the foam pads as I used them for conf/trade shows. They're not only warmer than a bare ground, but they're also quite cushiony. I opted for a longer rug and a matt for the kitchen plus an additional 'faux fur' rug on top of the other rug : )

[bobndot]

Additional 12v draws are:
Fridge, CO detector, Radio .

I use 2 portable CO detectors and have installed a toggle switch on the OEM and another toggle on the radio. The only overnight draw is the fridge and the furnace.
I also added 24x24 interlocking foam pads on the floor which seems to make the floor feel warmer. I too use insulating material to cover the windows at night. I think that helps a lot especially when a bed is up against a window.

[coolmom42]

Matt_Colie wrote:
Cory,

You have a lot of very good advice here.

The hose is a real favorite of mine. I missed that once and DW and I had to carry the rigid 25' hose out into the sun without bending it and then carry it back to the tap so we could put water pressure on it and get liquid in it so I could drain and roll it up. If you band a frozen hose, they often crack. I wish I could have figured out how to save all the cylindrical ice cubes......

Another thing I carried from sailing that served me well was to always have provisions for 3 days. That means food, water and fuel. When we used to travel in the late part of the year, we often had to hold up a day for weather. One time, it was two. The storm was only one day, but it took another day for things to be clear enough that we would not be in the way of people that had to be out there.

Be ready for few open camp grounds and many with no water available.

Matt

This is excellent advice.

[TwistedGray]

pnichols wrote:
For me personally, I don't trust quick-disconnect flexible hose propane gas connections for a portable propane heater being made inside the coach interior or those little propane cylinders being screwed onto a portable propane heater for use inside the coach interior. However, I do realize that thousands of RV'ers are getting away with using the portable propane heaters inside. It's just a situation that me, my wife, and our dog do not ultimately trust.

And there are surely thousands of RV'ers that share your opinion on the situation. At this point, primarily due to ignorance of whether or not my modifications will suffice, I generally agree. If I can avoid it, we will, but if not, we will take the proper precautions.

[pianotuna]

pnichols wrote:
For me personally, I don't trust quick-disconnect flexible hose propane gas connections for a portable propane heater being made inside the coach interior or those little propane cylinders being screwed onto a portable propane heater for use inside the coach interior. However, I do realize that thousands of RV'ers are getting away with using the portable propane heaters inside. It's just a situation that me, my wife, and our dog do not ultimately trust.

Hear Hear!

[pnichols]

TwistedGray wrote:

I just recall reading time and time again that people can only eek out 3-4 hours of furnace use off the battery (at least 19G owners). I don't recall seeing their set-ups though and whether or not they're partitioning areas.

If I can get away with the partition, the window coverings, the screen door window cover (allow sun in during the day but keep air out), and the multiple rugs that would be great. I planned to run a propane line inside and use an unvented radiating heater with both a window and a vent cracked. There's a carbon monoxide detector in the cabin already, so I'm not concerned, and we'll be "manual venting" to be additionally safe(r).

BUT I may still run it without any modification first to see if it's enough; however, I'm not just concerned about the electrical draw on the battery but also that I've read it drinks propane. Of course none of this is firsthand experience, so we will see firsthand and then likely go from there.

An RV's propane furnace will not draw down a coach battery in only 3-4 hours of even constant running ... unless the battery is either in poor general shape or the battery is not charged up enough when turning the furnace on.

If the propane furnace is using too much propane ... then probably the furnace is running constantly with no, or very little, ON/OFF cycling night after night - in combination with the propane tank(s) being kindof a too-small base capacity or not full enough when the cold temperatures set in.

For me personally, I don't trust quick-disconnect flexible hose propane gas connections for a portable propane heater being made inside the coach interior or those little propane cylinders being screwed onto a portable propane heater for use inside the coach interior. However, I do realize that thousands of RV'ers are getting away with using the portable propane heaters inside. It's just a situation that me, my wife, and our dog do not ultimately trust.

[TwistedGray]

memtb wrote:
TwistedGray, you may consider having a second CO detector.....just in case the first one fails . We do similar as you’re planning, and go5 the second detector as a “fail-safe”! memtb

For the cost, probably worth the insurance. Good point