Wandering Nightmare

[karldavidson]

I just bought a Four Winds Citation 2006 with 12,000 miles on it. My first venture was a nightmare because it was virtually impossible to keep the RV on the road.

I have added the Safe-T-Plus and stabilizer bars on the rear, but neither has helped to a great degree. Had the alignment checked and it is okay.

My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171" and the total length is 27'4". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197" with a length of 26'5".

It appears that the steering problem is due to too much weight and length past the rear axle. This makes the front end too light, and therefore it wanders all over the road. Help Please... Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

[j-d]

Those tiedowns sound like a good idea. You can use the ratchets to lift the bar into place. I slid ours under the coach on the box it came in and was able to get it in place. But I was REALLY lucky with the front bolts. I had removed a damaged trailer hitch from an F150 and kept those plates and bolts you fish up into the frame rails. The plates have square holes in them for the 1/2" carriage bolts. It was easy to poke the bolts through the frame rail and the plates jammed against each other when I torqued the nuts. Easy install. Problem I had was the OEM bracket bolts were stuck in the welded nuts on the axle brackets. I spent most of the total project time on one bolt.

[JJCruiser]

. . . replace the front and rear sway bars with a pair from Hellwig! Massive sway bars compared to the stock ones.
Only issue with installing them is they are heavy! Just about all one person can do to hold them in place as you tighten bolts!

I added a rear sway bar this last weekend to my RV. I agree, they are heavy. I ended up using a couple ratcheting tie down straps to hold the bar in place while I got the bolts started. It would have been quite the workout without the straps.

[rbutton]

so what did I do today to my class C... replace the front and rear sway bars with a pair from Hellwig! Massive sway bars compared to the stock ones.
Only issue with installing them is they are heavy! Just about all one person can do to hold them in place as you tighten bolts! In the rear my MH has extra leaf springs - 2004 31ft Jayco. So that bolt holding the away bar is a pain to get out as it hits the leaf spring before it's all the way out. Takes some work as the blind nut is held on the frame with a clip. If you need to pry the clip loose so the nut can allow the screw to come out at an angle. Then if you need to just use a nut on the inside instead of the blind nut.
In a couple of days we hit the road for a 18 hour trip and will see how well the sway bars improve the drive.
So far I have replaced the upper and lower ball joints, replaced the steering damper, installed 4 new Bilstein RV shocks, and an alignment.
Each has made improvements to the handling (reduced wandering).

[gotsmart]

pauldub wrote:
gotsmart, does your motor home pull to the right? In other words, do you always have to steer left when driving down a straight road?

Only when I drive west on I-84 in Oregon. Last Wednesday I drove from RnR RV (highly recommend them) in Liberty Lake, WA to Spirit Mountain Casino in Grand Ronde, Oregon (their RV parking lot has a dump station and potable water station - both free. *sweet*). Only 459 miles , 9 hours and 57.712 gallons of gas. I averaged 7.95 MPG across 2 fill-ups. I boondocked at Spirit Mountain for 2 days (I slept all day Thursday) then came to Neskowin Creek RV Resort yesterday.

Route 395 in WA is a wonderful road - very easy to drive. Cruise Control likes it. I-82 in Kennewick, WA to I-84 W exit 104 (Biggs Junction, OR) had the most wind I have yet to see. The south-to-north crosswind on I-84 was constant. I was steering left 95% of the time - just to go straight. I was in the right lane going 60 MPH. Every time I saw tractor-trailer approach, I'd put my right-rear tires on the rumble strip, the semi driver would cheat to the left - then the wind would push the trailer into me and we'd do the sway-dance together. The tandem trailers were even worse. There were times when there was only a few inches of daylight between us. It was a nightmare drive. I-5 was an easy drive. OR-18 from McMinnville, OR was windy.

So yes, last Wednesday I was steering WAAAY to the left.

[gotsmart]

Harvard wrote:
The Final CROSS CASTER = (LH - RH) = 4.0 - 4.3 = -0.3 (Normal -1.5 to +0.5) So its good.

Caster +4.0 is much better then +3.0 BUT +5.0 is much better then +4.0, IMO, but those numbers are all "within spec". I know the difference adding +2 makes and you know what it is like to have a +4, only wish we were in the same neighbourhood so we could have a first hand comparision of each others RV. I was in Newport, WA 3 weeks ago at Old American Kampground. That is probably as close to the GWN as I'll ever get. I've been to Toronto - but that doesn't count.

Why did you have the ball joints done?
Did the new ball joints fix the concern?

My 2004 28' E450 has 34,000 miles.

My 2004 just rolled over 114,000 miles on the odometer. At 111,000 miles the ball joints were shot. They had way, way, way, way too much play in them - and Ford's OE joints are permanently lubed. *groan* Replaced with NAPA joints with zerk fittings. The new joints stiffened up the steering quite a bit.

[j-d]

My limited understanding links Positive Toe (toe-in) to Positive Camber, which E-Series has. How the spec could allow so much Negative Toe (toe-OUT) eludes me.

Related to my Rear Overhang discussion, a Sprinter-based View just arrived. Very little rear overhang. Since MB doesn't allow frame stretching, it seems that little overhang is built into Sprinter-based units by chassis builder decree. I'm sure there's much more to it, but I'm going to take a flyer and say the limited overhang contributes to Sprinter's storied handling.

[Harvard]

The Final CROSS CASTER = (LH - RH) = 4.0 - 4.3 = -0.3 (Normal -1.5 to +0.5) So its good.

Caster +4.0 is much better then +3.0 BUT +5.0 is much better then +4.0, IMO, but those numbers are all "within spec". I know the difference adding +2 makes and you know what it is like to have a +4, only wish we were in the same neighbourhood so we could have a first hand comparision of each others RV.

Why did you have the ball joints done?
Did the new ball joints fix the concern?

My 2004 28' E450 has 34,000 miles.

[pauldub]

gotsmart, does your motor home pull to the right? In other words, do you always have to steer left when driving down a straight road?

[j-d]

It looks to me that your rig drove OK before and after, better after having gotten worn components out of the equation. A purist (good morning Harvard, thanks for all you've done with this) would like to see the caster number beginning in 5. But I think Harvard has already concluded that 7* is unattainable with available bushings, at least and retaining a reasonable camber.
I recall posting a pic of your coach as an example of one of the all-too-few that don't have way too much rear overhang in relation to house length or if you prefer wheelbase. We're starting to think the floorplan designers win over the chassis engineers and put the same rear overhang on many models, even when the overall size doesn't support that much overhang. Specualtion is that the wheel wells are a limitation that causes handling to be sacrificed to interior layout. Your coach seems to have avoided that. I wish more did.

[gotsmart]

Anybody feel like picking this apart? This is the alignment report from after I had the upper and lower ball joints replaced.

[tpi]

Frankly, this experience raises a question. Would this RV have handled as well had only the +5 Caster been applied without the add ons?

My thought is no, based on the add ons and 4 degrees of caster. I think the caster adjustment is an important part of the whole package. I'm going to try to get more + on mine.

But I found the body roll and floppy steering response very disconcerting. Tightening this up with the sway bars made a big difference to me in handling perception.

I think we all respond to different handling cues. I think all of the typical modifications have some validity. Taken as a whole they improve handling by a considerable margin. But the priority of importance of each improvement probably varies depending on what the driver locks onto as the most glaring handling fault.

[Harvard]

Once again, if I may, if you have a E350/E450 that seems to need the steering box tightened, you may benefit from additional +Caster.

In my opinion, +Caster is a steering control phenomenon that automatically stabilizes your vehicle, enabling you to maneuver through expected and unexpected driving situations even before you can react or over react.

[Harvard]

The crh3002 E350 had, at the very least, the CROSS CASTER out of spec:

BEFORE CROSS CASTER = (LH - RH) = 3.8 - 2.7 = +1.1 (Normal Range -1.5 to +0.5)
AFTER CROSS CASTER = (LH - RH) = 2.0 - 2.7 = -0.7 (Normal Range -1.5 to +0.5)

In theory, that by itself would cause the vehicle to want to go in the ditch unless it is in England, Australia or driving in the Fast Lane (ie on the left side of the road crown) on a freeway.

The caster on this particular E350 is now "within spec", have a good day. 🙂

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Does toe in increase under load (more weight) or decrease? Thanks in advance.

[ron_dittmer]

I am surely not an authority on this matter, but I would have thought that the alignment numbers will vary pending the load on the front wheels. One person's motor home could be front-heavy pushing the front tires up inside the wheel wells. Another person's motor home could be rear-heavy which would bring the front tires out from inside the wheel wells. That would change such numbers dramatically. I wonder if all this alignment "number talk" is dangerous talk.

I am surely not trying to offend anyone here. If my thoughts are wrong, please explain it so I can understand this better.....in layman terms please.