When will RV Manufacturers be concerned with quality?

[time_to_go_now]

I wanted to say Class A manufacturers, but it is the same with all manufacturers.

I have a 2008 Tiffin Allegro. FRED chassis. It has been an OK coach. Had it's share of issues, but Tiffin has been great about fixing them. Since the coach was new, there has been a leak around the doghouse that covers the engine. During summer travel, it is like a blast furnace is blowing on my right foot on the gas pedal. Since we stay within 300 miles of home, I have just dealt with it. I use CC to keep my foot off the pedal. This summer, we are planning a longer trip. So, I decided to tear it apart and see what it looks like "under the hood". To say I am appalled by the shoddy construction is an understatement. There is not enough space here to list everything that is wrong or sub par.

I am finding that I have to tear just about everything I can see or touch apart so that I can put it back together the way it should have been. This has turned into a complete remodel of the front end of the coach, including new carpet. A much, MUCH bigger project than I had expected. And the DW is not happy. Not happy with Tiffin. Not happy with me for busting it open. I will spend about $500 in materials to put it back together correctly. Everything is getting sound proofing, heat resistant insulation, and sealed. I knew I was going to have to spend some money, but not THAT much.

I have found all kinds of places I can see through the floor to the outside below. And, I found a piece of plywood about 18" x 18" that was some kind of scabbed on addition to patch a hole in the floor that has been blocking the gas pedal from being able to go completely to the floor. I figure I have only had about 70% throttle at best all this time.

And yes, I found why the dog house was allowing hot air on my foot. The drivers side of the dog house had a piece of angle iron that was 4" too short. So, they centered it leaving a 2" gap above and below. The gap at the bottom was allowing hot air to blast my foot. I completely redesigned that side of the doghouse and rebuilt it so there will be 100% seal from the engine compartment.

Not to bag on Tiffin. I suspect if you looked closely at most any rig, you would find shoddy construction. And Tiffin is supposed to be better than most. There needs to be a Mike Holmes for RV's! DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

Rant over!

[TriumphGuy]

time_to_go_now wrote:


Call me in about a year. My kids will have outgrown the bunks and we will be looking to move on to a Phaeton. And you will know the doghouse area will be completely rebuilt with nothing but the best sound proofing and insulation materials!

Yes, even with my issues, I would buy another Tiffin.

I'll keep that in mind! What is clear to me is that you'd buy another even with the issue(s). Good to know.

[time_to_go_now]

Cloud Dancer wrote:
If I were to buy another DP it would be a pre-owned high quality unit.

I will buy a DP and it will be a pre owned high quality unit.

[Cloud_Dancer]

The trick will be to convince the future customers that they should refuse to buy RVs until the quality improves. And, good luck with that. Personally, I take no responsibility because I'm not a future customer. If I were to buy another DP it would be a pre-owned high quality unit.
IMO the profits are not high enough to attract the Japanese to the USA diesel pusher industry.
As I recall, this conversation has been going on for many decades. And, YES the quality of motorhomes has improved significantly. But, the cost has increased significantly more.

[wa8yxm]

MotorPro wrote:
Quality will not improve as long as buyers continue to except and even make excuses for the poor quality.

My answer was going to be shorter than yours. But the same

Quality will improve when WE THE CUSTOMERS Demand it, not before.

[Sully2]

MotorPro wrote:
Quality will not improve as long as buyers continue to except and even make excuses for the poor quality. People say that they are complex so you have to expect some problems. There in nothing complex about an rv. They have several very simple systems. They just don't assemble them well.People say the buy tiffin because they have a great repair facility. If the built them right the first they wouldn't need a fancy repair shop. People say there are problems because want them cheap. These things are not cheap for what they are. I can't think of another industry where such poor quality control is so excepted.

AMEN!!

[Cloud_Dancer]

Whenever you decide to write a check for a large diesel pusher, some of us do a whole lot of research, and some of us discover that if we want it(the one we choose) whatever fault comes up will just have to be corrected later. In other words, we want it/we buy it. You can savor the anticipation of playing with a dream toy for only so long, THEN you pull the trigger. Of course, it usually turns into a "lesson". Yeah, blame us,.....we're the enemy. Don't buy one......:B

[MotorPro]

Quality will not improve as long as buyers continue to except and even make excuses for the poor quality. People say that they are complex so you have to expect some problems. There in nothing complex about an rv. They have several very simple systems. They just don't assemble them well.People say the buy tiffin because they have a great repair facility. If the built them right the first they wouldn't need a fancy repair shop. People say there are problems because want them cheap. These things are not cheap for what they are. I can't think of another industry where such poor quality control is so excepted.

[time_to_go_now]

TriumphGuy wrote:
I appreciate the honesty of the OP. A 2008+ Allegro 35QBA is on my very short list of potential coaches, hopefully, in about a year. However, I can't help but notice the asking price difference between that and my second on the list, 2008+ FR Georgetown 350TS.

I've owned two FR products and the last one killed me due to delam. I'd like something else, but for the money the Georgetown still in the running because there seems to be a premium on the Tiffin name.

What it will come down to is who has the least issues as I check used RVs. I expect issues from everyone, but I hope to find less in the Tiffin.

Call me in about a year. My kids will have outgrown the bunks and we will be looking to move on to a Phaeton. And you will know the doghouse area will be completely rebuilt with nothing but the best sound proofing and insulation materials!

Yes, even with my issues, I would buy another Tiffin.

[TriumphGuy]

I appreciate the honesty of the OP. A 2008+ Allegro 35QBA is on my very short list of potential coaches, hopefully, in about a year. However, I can't help but notice the asking price difference between that and my second on the list, 2008+ FR Georgetown 350TS.

I've owned two FR products and the last one killed me due to delam. I'd like something else, but for the money the Georgetown still in the running because there seems to be a premium on the Tiffin name.

What it will come down to is who has the least issues as I check used RVs. I expect issues from everyone, but I hope to find less in the Tiffin.

[mike_brez]

I can't complain about mine. It's almost 20 years old and is still all togeather.

[westernrvparkow]

tatest wrote:

time_to_go_now wrote:

kaydeejay wrote:
"When will RV Manufacturers be concerned with quality?"

When more RV buyers are prepared to pay for it, not just the cheapest they can get!!

Does it really cost that much more to do it right? How much more?

Yes, it does. Most motorhomes sell at 1/10 to 1/5 the price it would take to build them as well as the best of our luxury cars. Most buyers are willing to pay $80,000 to $200,000 for a motorized RV, when the bare shell for an equivalent size well engineered and well built motorcoach costs $600,000 to $800,000, and one needs to at least double that to fit out the house to the same quality.

As RV buyers, we are looking for Lexus quality at Yugo prices. We get big Yugos at that price.

The market for RVs (not including commercial coaches for entertainment businesses) at the $1,000,000 to $3,000,000 price point has totaled in the tens of thousands over the past forty years. To sell hundreds of thousands, or millions, they must be engineered to be manufactured at much lower costs. I think most of what we are buying are the equivalent of the Model T, about the best that can be done for what we are willing to pay.

I think most manufacturers are concerned about quality, but they are also concerned about a business model that depends on a large sales volume, so they are constrained by what we are willing to pay.

Newell is an example of the other end of the market. Build for quality, for the few customers willing to pay the price. A few thousand coaches over the past 45-50 years.

Newell is far from immune to problems. I had a guest a few years back with a beautiful Newell. I asked him how he liked it. He said as soon as he was able to go on a trip and not take it back to the Oklahoma factory for repairs, he was going to sell it. Then he told me it wasn't going to be put up for sale after that trip and he fully expected to have it for many more years. What is mainly seen in RVs are one off problems. No amount of good processes can eliminate random errors.

[skrams]

dougrainer wrote:
4. The OP's complaint is valid, but just using a $10 can of spray foam would have fixed his problem, NOT spending $500 and all that time and labor. I KNOW this because I have been a Dealer Service Tech for Tiffin for 35 years and have fixed dozens of Tiffins with the OP's complaint. You just have to know where and how to install the foam and silicone. You do not have to spend more than 1 hour doing this including test drives.

And since I would expect the people building the damn thing to know where and how to install the foam and silicone, why can't they just do it when they build the damn thing? If it costs $10 retail to do it, it will cost less at the factory. I'm sure the OP would have been happy to spend $3 more on the RV to not have this issue.

[J-Rooster]

Great Rant! My response is never! Why, most of the major RV Manufacturers are more interest in output (taking over the largest share of the RV Market) instead of slowing down production and building them right. JMHO and I've been preaching this for years!

[Cloud_Dancer]

Nobody knows how to manage and operate their business better than their successful owners and managers. It's absurd to imply that we could do better. They're the ones who made it through the recession and the slow-down of the RV sales.
And, IMO these successful manufacturers are aware of the substandard-quality items, methods and materials, in their product. For the most part, there's a number of compromises that are made.
However, I know of at least one thing that Newmar did which changed my previous assessment of Newmar. Therefore, if there's a next time, I plan to look for a nice clean pre-owned Country Coach.