Complete Newbie Needs Straight Talk

[ricks99]

Wife and I are longtime tent-campers trying to upgrade to a travel trailer. We're looking at something in the 15-17' range (such as Starcraft AR-One, R-Pod, etc.) weighing under 3,000.

Since my current vehicle (Ford Fiesta) wont tow *anything* I know I need to get a truck capable of safely towing a camper. I've tried to do my homework, but I'm going crazy...GVWR...GCW...axle rating...tongue weight...gear ratio...transmission coolers...

I've seen plenty of trucks in my price range ($10K) that I *think* will work (F150, Excusion, Silverado 1500, Yukon) but I've been unable to make an exact determination. The sellers sometimes have no idea what gear ratio the truck has. Or if the installed hitch is a "load distributing" hitch. Etc.

With the small size trailer we're looking at, can I safely assume that nearly any full-size vehicle with a V8 will work? Is there anywhere online that I can simply plug in a vehicle VIN and get a "you can safely tow XXXXX" determination?

[patchelect]

Bravo to ricks99. I discovered that my '01 Dakota could pull 5000# in part because it has a 3.93 rear as well. I recently had the hitch, brake controller and tranny cooler installed. Hopefully by spring I'll be looking at a trailer in the 14-16' range that should suit our needs and desires.

[ReneeG]

mkirsch wrote:
The "load distributing hitch" would not be installed on the truck, so you don't need to ask about that anymore. One less thing to worry about.

Technically what you are referring to is a "WEIGHT distributing hitch" and it is a device you buy separate from the truck and trailer, to connect the trailer to the truck. The size you choose is based on the weight of the trailer, and is a good idea 99.9999 percent of the time, especially if you buy one with an integrated sway control device.

Agree on the weight distributing hitch. Our first RV of any kind was a 19' Kit Sportsmaster travel trailer and we towed it with a '95 F150. We had the weight distributing hitch and anti sway bar. It was a great setup, although the TT was on the edge of being too heavy. Anyway, that was five towables ago.

[ricks99]

Just a quick update... we found our TV: A nice 2008 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, v8 with 3.92 gearing. Already has a class3 receiver hitch and prewired.. and under our $10K budget.

I've run the numbers and a 3000-3500# TT should be no problem.

Now we're off to get a brake controller and start TT shopping for real. 🙂

As recommended, once we're ready for our first trip, we'll get everything weighed.

Thanks again everyone for the advice!

[BenK]

Me too...but...many will only look at the lowest class TV AND only
(seemingly to me) want to have something 'rated just enough'...

Why only advise with metrics for anyone asking/reading/lurking to
figure it out themselves...

Lost is that all things designed are NOT for the good days when a riding
lawn mower 'can tow it'...but...for the worst day out there when
Mr Murphy crosses your path...either you have the right sized/rated
spot on...or not...no time to go back to the store for better/bigger/etc...nor
time to resetup the whole thing...

2001400ex wrote:
Lot of technical advice. One practical piece of advice I learned the hard way. Buy more truck than you need. Buying your first camper is like buying your first house, you make mistakes and things you think aren't important, really are. So you end up trading up.

Also I've been on the side of not having a big enough pickup and it's irritating. I hated towing, but now that i have the right setup, towing is a breeze.

So while yes, most vehicles will pull what you need, get a reliable pickup. Your price range, you should be able to find an early 2000s gas 3/4 from any of the big 3. Or mid to late 2000s you can get a V8 half ton. The advantage to the half ton is unloaded fuel mileage is way better.

[NWnative]

This is not the place for 'straight talk'. What you will get is a variety of opinions based on experience, personal preference, and plain old - "that is how I have always done it". Frankly, I am surprised nobody has recommended a Heavy Duty Diesel for your needs yet..... Now...don't everyone get upset about this....just trying to be funny. 🙂

As for the question, a 3000lb trailer will have a tongue weight of around 300-450lbs. You certainly do NOT need a V8 unless you want one. Most mid size SUV's, mid size pickups, many with V6's will do the trick. Two main things to consider as you research - Is the vehicle rated to tow the weight (will likely need trailer brakes and a hitch rated for the load) and, will the vehicle support the weight of all passengers and the tongue weight of the trailer. Happy Shopping!

[Grit_dog]

But good luck finding one. You'll likely end up with a slush box in whatever you get.
If somehow you can manage getting any of the newer models with a 5-6 speed auto and still within the price/miles you're looking for, do that.
Fwiw Dodge had the first auto with more than 4 gears starting in 06? With a 5 speed auto. GM 09, 6 speed, Ford '10 or '11 6 speed.

[Grit_dog]

Chuck_thehammer wrote:
most with a V8 .. but avoid manual transmissions unless its a heavy duty.

my Ram 1500 V SIX manual.. would only do 3,000 pound trailer.. but the same engine with an automatic was 4,500 pounds. I am talking 2 wheel drive.

WDH is needed when trailer is heaver that tow vehicle or Nose heavy.. my opinion.

check owners manual and on the Door sticker.. for what a vehicle can tow and carry. as the door sticker is the last WORD on that it can do..

I' think a bit differently here.
IF you can actually find a full size pickup with a manual trans in your budget/condition range, as most 1/2 ton handshakers are now clapped out or recycled already, and want to drive a stick or are using the truck primarily for towing the camper, I think it's a much preferable option over ANY older auto trans for towing duty, simplicity and reliability.
Worst case, you have to put a clutch in it. No real worries about overheating he trans on hills, hold any gear you want up or down the same hill. Better compression braking.
If I had $10k or less to find the best 1/2ton tow rig I could right now today, I'd search for an old grandpa owned 2nd gen Ram 1500 5.2/5 speed or a GMT400 (88-98) 1/2 ton, 305 or 350 5 speed. Up through '92? GM used an aluminum foreign 5 speed trans in the 1500s. Wasn't highly regarded but I had 2 of them for a combined 300kmi total and never opened the case. 1 HD clutch replacement on each was all I did to them. In 93' I think, GM ditched that trans for a NV4500, even in the half tons. Yes the same trans behind every Cummins Dodge for years several GM models and ALOT of big power rock buggies. Indestructible in a little small block half ton.

[Grit_dog]

Cobra21 wrote:
If you want a good bang for the buck, I would consider the Chev. Trailblazer.
4.3 straight 6

Unfortunately they're reasonably priced, by comparison, because GM kind of dropped the ball on that model. Not the best in reliability. Not a fluke either. Have 3 different friends or neighbors that have dropped the Trailgazer or Buick version like a hot rock at first opportunity. Folks next door still have a newer Buick one, whatever it is. Looks like they have a new car every couple months because there's a different rental or loaner in the driveway for weeks at a time.

[bikendan]

Cobra21 wrote:
If you want a good bang for the buck, I would consider the Chev. Trailblazer.
4.3 straight 6

almost always a poor choice for a tow vehicle, except for very small TTs and popups.
there are tons of posts here, from TB owners who hated how it towed and got better tow vehicles.

[2001400ex]

Lot of technical advice. One practical piece of advice I learned the hard way. Buy more truck than you need. Buying your first camper is like buying your first house, you make mistakes and things you think aren't important, really are. So you end up trading up.

Also I've been on the side of not having a big enough pickup and it's irritating. I hated towing, but now that i have the right setup, towing is a breeze.

So while yes, most vehicles will pull what you need, get a reliable pickup. Your price range, you should be able to find an early 2000s gas 3/4 from any of the big 3. Or mid to late 2000s you can get a V8 half ton. The advantage to the half ton is unloaded fuel mileage is way better.

[BenK]

Using your numbers...repeat that you need/should actually weigh your
TV fully loaded ready to go, axle by axle, in order to figure the
true MTWR for your TV

comments in red embedded below

ricks99 wrote:
Lots (and lots) of info to go thru here, thanks.

Assuming the following TV:
2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab ST, 4.7LV8, 2WD, 5spd Automatic
- GVWR = 6700

this is one of the 'light' rated half tons

- GCWR = 11500


- Curb = 5024

this is the stripper model and most do NOT own
the stripper model...if it has AC...it is NOT at curb...if it has power
door locks/windows/seats/etc...it is NOT at curb, etc...it will weigh
more than the curb weight. If the driver weighs more than 150 lbs, then
add that weight to the TV...then add the people/pets/luggage/etc

Note that if you add the 'curb' of 5,024 + the MTWR of 6,350
it will equal closely to the GCWR of 11,500

5,024 + 6,350 = 11,374

Dodge says I can safely tow 6350.

this is normally derived from the 'curb' or 'stripper model'

So the simple math above says your TV must weigh in very closely to
the curb of 5,024 in order to be rated to tow 6,350

If it weighs more than 5,024...then each pound over 5,024...must be
subtracted, pound for pound, from the MTWR of 6,350

Why recommend loading up and actually weighing your TV axle by
axle

Assuming the following TT:
Starcraft AR One 17RD
- Dry weight = 2865
- GVWR = 3500
This means I can load 635 of gear, propane, etc, in the TT, right?

Normally, yes.

Some include the spare tire...others do NOT

Some include the battery...others do NOT

Etc...then add the propane, clothing, lawn chairs, bikes, food, fire
wood, water, toolbox, etc, etc

Weight adds up FAST...

As long as I don't have more than ~3000 in gear in the TV, I'm good, right?

Now get that trailer tongue weight and it will be based on the 'dry'
weight. Okay, they are all done that way and indicates the percentage
of the actual weight when loaded

That weight goes onto the TV's rear axle

Check your state, as the trailer weight dictates whether it will need
trailer brakes or not

[Kingofthecove]

ricks99 wrote:
Lots (and lots) of info to go thru here, thanks.

Assuming the following TV:
2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab ST, 4.7LV8, 2WD, 5spd Automatic
- GVWR = 6700
- GCWR = 11500
- Curb = 5024
Dodge says I can safely tow 6350.

Assuming the following TT:
Starcraft AR One 17RD
- Dry weight = 2865
- GVWR = 3500
This means I can load 635 of gear, propane, etc, in the TT, right?

As long as I don't have more than ~3000 in gear in the TV, I'm good, right?

Not quite. There are many ways to "go over" with respect to towing a trailer.
First, imho, loading a TT to its max isn't a good idea. so, maybe try and stay at least a few hundred pounds under there.
Second, you need to figure out how much that truck is going to weigh with you and your gear and passengers. Let's just say 5,700lbs.
So now let's say you want to bring 650lbs of gear..
Putting it all in the trailer puts the trailer "over".
You have 1,000 lbs of carrying capacity still in the truck...........nope.........gotta add the hitch weight of your trailer to your truck weight.
Solution.
Split that 650lbs in half between the trailer and the truck.
It will look something like this:
Truck - 5,700, plus hitch weight 350 approx, plus gear 325 = 6375........ Your heavy, but OK.
Trailer - 3200 approx......your safely under 3500
At 9000 approx, you're well under your GCWR, which is a good thing.

[ricks99]

Lots (and lots) of info to go thru here, thanks.

Assuming the following TV:
2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab ST, 4.7LV8, 2WD, 5spd Automatic
- GVWR = 6700
- GCWR = 11500
- Curb = 5024
Dodge says I can safely tow 6350.

Assuming the following TT:
Starcraft AR One 17RD
- Dry weight = 2865
- GVWR = 3500
This means I can load 635 of gear, propane, etc, in the TT, right?

As long as I don't have more than ~3000 in gear in the TV, I'm good, right?

[BenK]

Welcome to the forum and to the world of Towing an RV !!!

Glad to hear you are researching before jumping in...too many jump in
and then find that they have the wrong setup and/or marginal setup

First, decide if you believe in the OEM's ratings system and numbers

If not, then academic and do whatever you wish, but note that the OEMs
are now off the warranty hook (if any left) and liability hook

If yes, research, read up and gather info to do the simple math to
figure. The best is to actually weigh the whole setup fully loaded
ready to go RV'ing. Weigh it axle by axle

Comments embedded in red below

ricks99 wrote:
Wife and I are longtime tent-campers trying to upgrade to a travel trailer. We're looking at something in the 15-17' range (such as Starcraft AR-One, R-Pod, etc.) weighing under 3,000.

Since my current vehicle (Ford Fiesta) wont tow *anything* I know I need to get a truck capable of safely towing a camper. I've tried to do my homework, but I'm going crazy...GVWR...GCW...axle rating...tongue weight...gear ratio...transmission coolers...

GVWR.....Gross Vehicle Weight Rating...AKA max rated weight on the pavement
This applies to any DOT approved/registered vehicle...including the trailer
Derived from a 'curb' TV weight and the MTWR (Max Tow Weight Rating)
for the largest trailer this TV is rated to tow. "Curb" is the stripper
model TV with NO options, except for the 'tow option' and one 150LB driver

GCWR....Gross Combined Weight Rating...both TV and trailer

TV....Tow Vehicle

GAWR....Gross Axle Weight Rating...there are two, Front and Rear that
the axle is rated for. Most times the front and rear added together do
NOT equal the GVWR and is something we outside of the OEM design team
will never know how they derived their GVWR


MTWR....Max Tow Weight Rating...is the largest trailer a 'curb' weight
TV is rated to tow. Too many think of this rating in an absolute term.
Meaning that if their TV is loaded up to it's GVWR before hooking up,
their TV is rated for that....NOT SO, if loaded to their GVWR there is
NO MORE RATING for the tongue & hitch weight

I've seen plenty of trucks in my price range ($10K) that I *think* will work (F150, Excusion, Silverado 1500, Yukon) but I've been unable to make an exact determination. The sellers sometimes have no idea what gear ratio the truck has. Or if the installed hitch is a "load distributing" hitch. Etc.

Suggest using their GVWR's to reference between them. Example is that
you are comparing 'half ton' to '3/4 ton' and that a Silverado can be
either a 'half ton' or a '3/4 ton'. Ditto a Yukon, there are two of them

An Excursion was never sold in a 'half ton' model

Ford (other too) has over 12 F150 (half ton) models. IIRC, ranging
from low 6,000 lbs to just under 8,000 lbs...they used to have an 8,1000
lb GVWR F150

Most all of a TV's have their loaded weight placed on their rear axle
Just look at their side views and that most will have the rear edge
of the drivers door near dead center. Loading is most always behind
the drivers seat

'Half ton' TVs generally have a rear GAWR in the 4,000 lb range. Next
higher class TVs generally have a rear GAWR in the 6,000 lb range. That
approx 2,000 higher ratings provides for larger tongue weight and loaded
stuff in/on the TV

Buying used has the potential that the previous owner(s) changed out
the diff gears. Below is a method to figure that out.

Just checking the option label and/or the tag on the diff only tells
you what that vehicle left the factory with

The part bolted to the TV's rear for towing is the 'receiver' that
has a square tube (some call it the receiver pin box) that holds the
'shank'/'draw bar', which holds the ball or WD Hitch

The part on the trailer that goes on the ball is the coupler (if you
already know this, then it is for the lurker newbies)

With the small size trailer we're looking at, can I safely assume that nearly any full-size vehicle with a V8 will work? Is there anywhere online that I can simply plug in a vehicle VIN and get a "you can safely tow XXXXX" determination?

The link provided is a good source, but best if from the OEM

Roll the vehicle so that one wheel valve stem is straight down.

Tape length of string on the drive shaft pointing straight down

Roll the vehicle one rotation so that the valve stem is again straight
down

Count the full number of string wraps on the drive shaft. That is the
first full number of the diff ratio. If 3 full wraps, then it is 3.X ratio

The fraction of string wrap is the second part of the diff ratio. So
if about 3/4 of a wrap/turn, the diff ratio is 3.73

Remove the string