Dumping Tanks in an Empty Full Service Site

[ronny7800]

Last week I was staying in a full service site in a national park. The park has hundreds of sites, only about a third of which are full service. The rest of the park shares 2 dump stations which are always lined up in the morning.

Each morning, though, I witnessed people pull into empty full service sites, dump their tanks and move on.

Thoughts on this? A good idea & something you would do? Or potentially creating a mess the next user has to deal with?

[jplante4]

CLOSED.

[austinjenna]

At Ohio State parks its the same price, full hook up or electric only.

This is so not true. The cost of a FHU is always more.
Rates

[valhalla360]

BillyBob Jim wrote:

I am also sure you would be the first person complaining if you were on one of our FHU sites, and we sent 4 or 5 people over to dump at the adjacent vacant site right in front of you about 25' away while you were sitting at your picnic table having your breakfast.

Draconian? ROFLMAO.

You may be sure...but you would be wrong. I've been in a number of sites where the dump station is literally across the road...not a big deal.

In fact it can be quite entertaining. Breakfast and a show.

Draconian? As in you keep referring to big fines and going after people doing fairly harmless things rather than using a little customer service based attitude nudging people in the direction you want them to go...so yeah, please let us know the park you are affiliated with so we can avoid it.

[BillyBob_Jim]

valhalla360 wrote:

Don't let reality get in the way of a good argument.

A key issue is at the vast majority of parks, this is a Sunday afternoon issue and non-existent the rest of the week.

Really? No one is in the park the rest of the week to be disturbed by having to watch people use the site adjacent to them as the general dump station?

Also, if they are blocking the road, that's the appropriate time to take action. Not draconian that aren't supported by any issues.

If this is representative of how the park you are affiliated with operates, let us know so we can avoid it as I'm sure you apply similar draconian actions to just about any minor infraction.

I'm certain we would be more than glad not to have you.

I'm still trying to figure out how it's a sanitary issue for a short stop to dump but people staying the night it's somehow not a sanitary issue.

I bet you are, as you have never been the person who cleaned up / raked up or limed down the area around a sewer connection. You would simply pull out and leave it for whomever.

I am also sure you would be the first person complaining if you were on one of our FHU sites, and we sent 4 or 5 people over to dump at the adjacent vacant site right in front of you about 25' away while you were sitting at your picnic table having your breakfast.

Draconian? ROFLMAO.

[toedtoes]

So many declarations:

FHU sites always cost more.
All sites cost the same.
Every park/campground has a different system.
Every park/campground has the same system.
There's no reason not to allow it.
There's no reason to allow it.

So far, none of these (or any others made) is universally true. You're all arguing based on false generalizations.

Just friggin' ask the park when you arrive if you can dump at a FHU site. If they say yes - go dump and enjoy. If they say no - wait in line like everybody else.

Geez, you'd think this was a big deal. It's not. It's a dumb argument.

[valhalla360]

DarkSkySeeker wrote:

BillyBob Jim wrote:

Dang, if I back onto that pad, my steps will be on the wrong side.

Don't let reality get in the way of a good argument.

A key issue is at the vast majority of parks, this is a Sunday afternoon issue and non-existent the rest of the week.

Also, if they are blocking the road, that's the appropriate time to take action. Not draconian that aren't supported by any issues.

If this is representative of how the park you are affiliated with operates, let us know so we can avoid it as I'm sure you apply similar draconian actions to just about any minor infraction.

I'm still trying to figure out how it's a sanitary issue for a short stop to dump but people staying the night it's somehow not a sanitary issue.

[dieseltruckdriv]

Tom/Barb wrote:

BillyBob Jim wrote:
You'll be cited at the PA park we host at if caught. It has nothing to do with all of it going to the same place, which are idiotic comments. It has everything to do with sanitation. the campsites have sewer connections usually surrounded by grass, not paved surfaces around them and containment provisions like the common dump stations down at the entrance have.

For those who think its acceptable, I hope you show up at a full hook up site you reserved and it's trashed with toilet paper remnants among other things, because of it's use as a high volume dump station prior to your arrival.

The specific charge is "Unauthorized use of facilities". Fine with costs is @ $167.00 and the rangers hand them out fairly regular, especially on Sunday afternoons.

Remind me again, where do you host?

Who wants to deal with this?

+1, so I don't stay there.

Every campground I have stayed in the pipes do actually go to the same place. I am not saying every campground is this way, but the ones I have been in actually do.

[Lantley]

Tom/Barb wrote:
Who says they didn't? most parks have the same price for all spaces.
To me, not a big deal. I'll bet it all goes to the same place.
People who make a mess and leave it are a bad no matter where they do it.

FHU sites always cost more the W/E sites. As far the mess, we know dump stations require additional infrastructure to contain the mess.
Dump stations are more than just a pipe sticking out of the ground.
Generally there is concrete and a sloped pad. Why? To contain the mess.
We can pretend dumping at a site has no down side, but there are a lot of factors to consider including human nature to create a mess. Unfortunately if a mess can be made anonymously us humans will pull away in a heartbeat

[Edd505]

Tom/Barb wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
They didn't pay for those campsite services so IMO their cheating.

Who says they didn't? most parks have the same price for all spaces.
To me, not a big deal. I'll bet it all goes to the same place.
People who make a mess and leave it are a bad no matter where they do it.

Who says they are all the same price? If you camped much you would find full service sits are more than a water/electric every where I have been, but I only camped 9 months last year.

[ependydad]

toedtoes wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
....The truth is that each park should be able to allow or disallow dumping at FHU sites according to THEIR individual circumstances.

Do not assume it's OK to do because you saw it done somewhere else, or another park told you to do it.

Ask the individual park and abide by their answer....

Well said!

I agree with this. Unfortunately, many parks will make that decision base upon revenue stream, not practicality/facility limitations.

And that is their choice. Just because you don't agree with why doesn't mean it can't be their answer.

So in that case individual circumstances has nothing to do with it, it's just their "Choice". That's fine by me (their park, their rules); but I bet they'll lie about the reason for it.

And I'll make you another bet, the vast majority of the parks dumping down one hole ends up in the exact same spot as dumping down any other hole in the park.

They are basing it on their individual circumstances. Just not the circumstances that YOU deem acceptable. And if they lie about why they make their decision, that's their choice.

And who cares where it goes. It's their park, their system, their choice.

You're turning this into a "how dare they tell me no" argument. It doesn't matter their reason. FHU sites aren't built to provide dumping for folks not parked in those sites. If the park let's you do it, then yippee. If they don't then you go wait in line like everyone else and quit whining. If you don't want to wait in line then dump at home or only get FHU sites.

I have nothing more to add except I like to see how many responses that have many multiple quotes-in quotes within quotes we can get. But I am enjoying the conversation.

Just for you d3500ram... 🙂

Appreciate that, TT. How is your mornin going? I still can't believe some folks here thinks that the practice of dumping at FHU site is acceptable. Nice weather we are having here in Colo... mid 80's in the day, low 40's at night. 🙂

My pleasure. Nice day today. Slept late. In relax mode. The weather is hot, but not horrid. I just love their ability to see only one perspective - theirs. Must be nice not being bogged down with consideration and concern for others.mmakes me glad I prefer dry campgrounds.

This thread:

[toedtoes]

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
....The truth is that each park should be able to allow or disallow dumping at FHU sites according to THEIR individual circumstances.

Do not assume it's OK to do because you saw it done somewhere else, or another park told you to do it.

Ask the individual park and abide by their answer....

Well said!

I agree with this. Unfortunately, many parks will make that decision base upon revenue stream, not practicality/facility limitations.

And that is their choice. Just because you don't agree with why doesn't mean it can't be their answer.

So in that case individual circumstances has nothing to do with it, it's just their "Choice". That's fine by me (their park, their rules); but I bet they'll lie about the reason for it.

And I'll make you another bet, the vast majority of the parks dumping down one hole ends up in the exact same spot as dumping down any other hole in the park.

They are basing it on their individual circumstances. Just not the circumstances that YOU deem acceptable. And if they lie about why they make their decision, that's their choice.

And who cares where it goes. It's their park, their system, their choice.

You're turning this into a "how dare they tell me no" argument. It doesn't matter their reason. FHU sites aren't built to provide dumping for folks not parked in those sites. If the park let's you do it, then yippee. If they don't then you go wait in line like everyone else and quit whining. If you don't want to wait in line then dump at home or only get FHU sites.

I have nothing more to add except I like to see how many responses that have many multiple quotes-in quotes within quotes we can get. But I am enjoying the conversation.

Just for you d3500ram... 🙂

Appreciate that, TT. How is your mornin going? I still can't believe some folks here thinks that the practice of dumping at FHU site is acceptable. Nice weather we are having here in Colo... mid 80's in the day, low 40's at night. 🙂

My pleasure. Nice day today. Slept late. In relax mode. The weather is hot, but not horrid. I just love their ability to see only one perspective - theirs. Must be nice not being bogged down with consideration and concern for others.mmakes me glad I prefer dry campgrounds.

[DarkSkySeeker]

BillyBob Jim wrote:

Dang, if I back onto that pad, my steps will be on the wrong side.

[WTP-GC]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

WTP-GC wrote:

Lantley wrote:

WTP-GC wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Apparently you have no comprehension regarding septic systems. That 3" or 4" pipe leads to a holding tank and all the solids settle to the bottom and the liquids flow thru perforated 1 inch pipes into the drain fields. To determine how much area those perforated pipes must cover the engineer performs a percolation test. They then use a formula that takes the percolation performance and the amount of liquid anticipated to determine the size of the drain field. Far exceed that liquid amount and the liquid doesn't seep into the ground and instead forms pools of waste water on the surface. As I previously posted many parks have several septic systems and the systems tied to full hookup sites are designed to process that waste, not the waste of multiple dumps in a rapid succession.

One of the interesting parts of this thread is very common throughout the forum in general: people believe certain things to be universal in nature. And this comment above is extremely indicative of that mindset.

As a matter of fact, I've spent my entire career, over many years, designing, building, expanding and consulting with people about their sewer systems. Don't make the mistake believing that your onsite treatment system in Montana is equitable to every other campground out there (as your comment suggests). The description of your system is different that every other system I've been involved with, so...

If it makes you feel any better we have those same drain field systems in Maryland. MD is a long way from Montana somehow drain field technology made it this far.

The general concept behind a basic septic system is piping into it, holding tank (for septage processing) and piping out to a drain field. Beyond that, there are nearly endless configurations, pipe sizes, drain field design, etc. based on location, code, and other factors. I’ve been to South America where the also have similar septic system designs, but their drain field arrangement was remarkably different. The point is that septic systems may look the same at the most basic level, but they vary greatly. I’ve worked with folks who have septic systems at their multi-use facilities, and their systems had to be designed to accept the dumping flow of dishwashers and laundry facilities all at once, plus the normal bathroom loads.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment...if no rules against it...

You need to make up your mind. When I gave a description of a typical septic system you said you have consulted and built systems for decades and never have seen one like I described. Now you are describing systems you have built and they are EXACTLY the same as I laid out earlier. You are even saying that systems have to be designed differently depending upon the anticipated loads. The implication in your "multi-use" facility system is that if the system was designed only for normal bathroom loads, the addition of dishwashers and laundry facilities would overload the system.
That is exactly what I was pointing out in regards to a system designed for full hookup RV sites. They are designed for the loads generated by the RVs in those sites, not for the additional loads of multiple RVs dumping. The dump station in many parks has it's own set of tanks and drain fields designed to handle that load. It is a very common design for RV park waste systems.

To be more clear, when you said the following:
"liquids flow thru perforated 1 inch pipes into the drain fields"
That I have never seen. Admittedly, designs vary by location (as I already stated), but I've never ever seen 1" pipes going to the drain field. In all the systems I've been involved with, the tank outlet going to the drain field is 3" or larger. Sometimes its perforated and sometimes its a sock and sometimes its domes...and so on...
But again, the point I made from the beginning is that none of these systems are universal in design. I don't know how many times I have to say that, yet people simply don't get it.

A campground is...what exactly (in terms of it sewage treatment design)? Residential, commercial, industrial, mixed-use?????? Therein lies the problem. A FHU site should be designed for the sudden deluge of a 30-80 gallon black tank, simultaneous with a 30-80 gallon grey water tank...at the fastest rate it can be possible travel through a 3" flexible hose. I was not aware that ALL campers leave their grey water tank open all the time. What if 2 neighbors decided to dump their full tanks at exactly the same time. God-forbid that 3 or more neighbors do it at the same time. I've camped in groups before where this happens because we're all leaving at about the same time. That's where the entire argument falls apart. Also, all the FHU sites I can recall are no less than 4" pipe. How far is it to the septic tank (if not using public sewer)? 100'? 1000'? A 4" pipe can hold about 50 gallons of liquid every 100'. So generally speaking...a refuse to believe that a few people using a FHU site to dump instead of the dump station can create and problem or system overload. And in all the conjecture on here thus far...NOBODY has actually seen it become a problem in any way.

When you say this:
"That is exactly what I was pointing out in regards to a system designed for full hookup RV sites. They are designed for the loads generated by the RVs in those sites, not for the additional loads of multiple RVs dumping. The dump station in many parks has it's own set of tanks and drain fields designed to handle that load. It is a very common design for RV park waste systems."
Are you suggesting that each site has its own drain field? I know that's not what you mean, but it sure sounds like that. At a minimum, each loop or section of the parks should be tied in on the same sewer line. Maybe each loop or section has its own septic (if applicable), but if you have 30 RV's parked in a section, each should be connected to the same sewer line (underground) and the system had dang sure be able to handle the load of at least half of those dumping simultaneously.

[WTP-GC]

Lantley wrote:
WTP-GC WROTE: "I’ve worked with folks who have septic systems at their multi-use facilities, and their systems had to be designed to accept the dumping flow of dishwashers and laundry facilities all at once, plus the normal bathroom loads."
With that in mind it should be apparent all drains and sewer systems are not the same...

Yes, it's apparent...because that's exactly what I said.