How much weight on gooseneck/5th wheel/truck bed?

[ognend]

Hello,

I have a 3/4 ton GMC Sierra 2500 HD truck, 4x4, diesel, crew cab (basically all the weight adding features). We love the truck so are pretty unwilling to give up unless really necessary.

I took the truck to the scales and calculated that I can safely carry about 1900 lbs in the truck bed. How is the max legal 5th wheel/Gooseneck trailer weight calculated from here? I think I remember that the axis/tongue receiver gets about 25% of the overall trailer weight - which would give me basically the capability to carry 4x1900 lbs or not even 8,000 lbs of fully loaded trailer. I am wanting to pull a 3-horse living quarters trailer and these start dry at 7,000+ lbs. Throw in two horses at 1100 lbs each, some hay, water and other stuff and my trailer is at 10,000-12,000 lbs easy. This is not enough truck to be legally (and safely) pulling this kind of a setup, no?

I am aware of people putting in air bags in the back (but this does not make the ride any more legal or safer and does not increase weight carrying capacity - only makes the ride better). I also know people have pulled much larger weights with much smaller trucks all their lives and gotten away with it. I am NOT interested in those experiences - what I am interested in is the LEGAL stuff - if I were to get into an accident (or get pulled over) and get taken to the scales with my whole rig - would I be overweight (and hence insurance would not cover any damages) or...?

Any input welcome!

Thanks!
OD

[ognend]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
^^^^^^^Always a good call^^^^^^^

Based on your numbers 1,900# pin is 20% of 9,500#.

Thanks! I love my truck but safety is safety...I am sure I can love a different truck too 🙂

[Cummins12V98]

^^^^^^^Always a good call^^^^^^^

Based on your numbers 1,900# pin is 20% of 9,500#.

[ognend]

Thank you gmw and jimnlin. I think I am going to look for a dually....

[gmw_photos]

To the OP, I think you have pretty much answered your own question. The truck you have will not carry the load within it's stated limits.

As you probably already know, when we have living qtrs in these trailers, we tend to get front heavy anyway. We take a lot of stuff for a show. Nobody goes to a show "packing light".

Bottom line is: my F350 dually has enough extra capacity, that when I'm loaded for a show ( Kiefer Built 4 horse slant with front dressing room, moderately modded for "living" ), I am within all the limits stated by Ford. "If" this were a F350 SRW, I would be over some of the ratings.

Honestly, if you're gonna get really carried away with a higher end living qtr trailer, like with slide out and all the goodies you may want to look at a F450, or a MDT from Freightliner.

Do your homework, and figure most of the time with these horse haulers, we are often bumping right up against the GVWR of the trailer. Figure 22-25% on the pin.

The difference between RV trailers, and horse trailers, is that typically, with a camper, folks "only" add maybe 1200 to 2000 pounds on top of the so called as shipped weight.
WTH....we can add that much in a horse trailer with just one horse. Then we add the other horses, and all the tack and a couple or three riders in the backseat, etc.

[JIMNLIN]

It is all pretty confusing for me. Here are my numbers at the scale (full tank of diesel and my wife next to me in the passenger seat) and on the inside of the driver door sticker:

Steer axle: 4220 lbs
Drive axle: 2900 lbs
Gross weight: 7120 lbs

The sticker on the inside of the driver door says:
GVWR: 9200 lbs
GAWR Front: 4670 lbs
GAWR Rear: 6084 lbs

Now..... with those weights its a simple math job.
As another poster mentioned simply subtract the drive axle 2900 lbs for 6084 RAWR leaves you with 31xx lbs for your legal payload . You can do the math on hitch weight.
You did ask for your trucks legal payload. GVWR simply isn't used for that purpose.

I am asking for the following case: we (God forbid) get into an accident and are taken to the scales. The scales put out a set of numbers and my insurance company gets these numbers. Based on these numbers they calculate that I am within carrying capacity and decide to honor insurance. Or they decide I am grossly overweight and decide not to honor it. I don't want to drive around thinking I am insured when I am not. In addition, breaking distance, safety etc. play a role. I don't want to drive around, for example, 2,000 lbs overweight and that increases my breaking distance by X feet.

Again you asked for your legal payload. If its legal there won't be any voided insurance claims. If the truck is taken to the scale house they weigh the truck in each axle position for overloading the GAWRs. Or if your state has a registered weight of some kind its checked at that time also.
There has never been a credible link that shows the insurance didn't pay for a at fault accident regarding being over the trucks GVWR. You can wreck the truck when drunk and the insurance will still pay or drive 90 in a 55 zone and wreck the truck ...insurance will still pay.

Braking distance ??
Your trucks braking performance is equal to the sum of your trucks GAWRs. 6084 RAWR plus 4670 FAWR = 10754 lb of braking performance.

If the trailer has two 6k axles it will have 12000 lb of braking performance or 22754 lb combined (truck and trailer).

Lots of folks new to the towing world come on a RV web and go away more confused than ever as some folks giving advice use the GVWR method or the RAWR method or the GCWR method or the tire placard sticker or just load it up and go. There is but one legal method. Your state size and weights officers or their departments is the best place to find out.

[ognend]

mkirsch wrote:
IMHO, most people don't "decide" anything. They just blindly forge ahead with no idea that they're overloaded. Blissfully ignorant.

THAT is how they "get away with it."

You are correct, going strictly "by the book" you do not have all that much tow capacity with your current truck.

Even though you only have a "payload" of ~2000lbs, take a look at your axle weights.

The rear axle only has 2900lbs on it empty, and it has a rating of 6084lbs with stock tires. That give you 3184lbs of axle capacity. A gooseneck is generally installed directly over, or maybe 1-2" ahead of the rear axle so almost 100% of the gooseneck weight will go on the rear axle.

Looking at it this way, ignoring GVWR, opens up your towing capacity to about 15,000lbs.

You will want to register the truck's weight as the sum of the FAWR and RAWR, not the factory GVWR, if you decide to go this route. The potential for prizes (even just trophies) at the horse shows makes you "commercial" in some states.

This actually sounds reasonable. I am really not interested in the "I did it for years and was fine". I understand that but I also understand some people are just plain lucky :). To me this should be about science and engineering and numbers. I am just trying to understand all the variables involved to get to the right formula I am comfortable with. I think your math makes some sense to me - thank you.

[Bedlam]

When buying, I take the worst case numbers. This means the trailer is loaded at maximum capacity resulting in 25% of that in pin weight. If it is a bumper pull, 15% of the weight would be on the hitch.

The truck manufacturer rating is based on many criteria but ultimately is conservative to avoid warranty claims and legal liabilities. If you were to look at the frame under your truck, it's the same one they use for 3500 DRW. The AAM rear axle used has over a 9000 lb rating from the source manufacturer.

One of the reason there is even a market for the 3/4t trucks is that the segment satisfies the commercial side where vehicles under 10,000 GVWR have less stringent operator licensing. Once you start digging deeper into the parts making up your truck, It is easier to list the differences between the 3500 SRW and 2500 than the commonalities.

My choice would be to get tires and rims that could handle the pin weight of the desired LQ horse trailer when fully loaded. If you need additional suspension aids to help level the truck, that can be addressed once you have some idea of actual rolling weight when you load up. There will be plenty of detractors crying that the sky will fall and you will locked up, but none of them have produced evidence to support their claims.

For 25,000 miles I drove a F250 with a 4000 lb truck camper. Half those miles I also towed an 8000 lb enclosed behind this setup. I had no failures and no scary uncontrolled moments even though I crossed the Rockies twice with this setup and live in an area where 3000' of elevation change is common. My only reason for selling that truck is that I am now looking at 6000 lb truck campers and I will eventually be pulling 12,000 lbs behind it.

[mkirsch]

IMHO, most people don't "decide" anything. They just blindly forge ahead with no idea that they're overloaded. Blissfully ignorant.

THAT is how they "get away with it."

You are correct, going strictly "by the book" you do not have all that much tow capacity with your current truck.

Even though you only have a "payload" of ~2000lbs, take a look at your axle weights.

The rear axle only has 2900lbs on it empty, and it has a rating of 6084lbs with stock tires. That give you 3184lbs of axle capacity. A gooseneck is generally installed directly over, or maybe 1-2" ahead of the rear axle so almost 100% of the gooseneck weight will go on the rear axle.

Looking at it this way, ignoring GVWR, opens up your towing capacity to about 15,000lbs.

You will want to register the truck's weight as the sum of the FAWR and RAWR, not the factory GVWR, if you decide to go this route. The potential for prizes (even just trophies) at the horse shows makes you "commercial" in some states.

[ognend]

Bedlam wrote:
If your rig was to be taken to the scales, they will look at your registered weight declaration and tire capacity. I only know of some Canadian provinces using the GVWR sticker.

OK - let;s forget about the insurance - what about the manufacturer numbers. After all the vehicle gets engineered to carry a certain weight - what is my maximum as per these specs? Do we agree the formula to calculate is 2080lbs (that we arrived at in previous posts) x 100/x, where x is portion of trailer weight on tongue.

So, for example, if 25% of trailer loaded weight is in tongue, the formula would be 2080 lbs x 4 = 8320 lbs. If 15% of weight of loaded trailer is in tongue then 2080 lbs x (roughly)7 = 14560 lbs.

Am I right? How do I obtain the weight of the trailer on the tongue BEFORE buying the trailer? I am looking at getting a gooseneck living quarters horse trailer and manufacturers state empty weight most of the time without the options...

Thanks!

[Bedlam]

If your rig was to be taken to the scales, they will look at your registered weight declaration and tire capacity. I only know of some Canadian provinces using the GVWR sticker.

[ognend]

rhagfo wrote:

All that said it is your choice to tow over your TV's GVWR, but many do it with 250/2500's without issue.

Thanks. That's kind of the crux of my question - do most people out there decide to max over the limits of the vehicle? What happens if you are in an accident and your rig gets taken to the scales?

[rhagfo]

Keep in mind the horses add almost nothing to the hitch weight, as they ride over the axles. The only items that will add to the hitch is what you add to the living quarters. The only about half or less will go to the hitch.
My daughter uses my 2001 Ram 4X4 Cummins to pull a two horse slant, no issues. I pull a 5er that comes in at 11,000# with a GVWR of 12,320#.
All that said it is your choice to tow over your TV's GVWR, but many do it with 250/2500's without issue.

[ognend]

Bedlam wrote:
If you are trying to stay within manufacturer warranty ratings, your current truck does not have the capacity. If you are trying to stay within legal ratings, it may be possible based on the weight declared on your vehicle registration. Let us know which way you want to go with this so we can help.

I am trying to cover the case that an insurance company would use against me. It has been my experience that they will always try and find something to avoid covering costs and they may be right - if you are towing in an unsafe manner, exceeding manufacturer limits, maybe they shouldn't pay.

So far, I calculated that I have about 2080 lbs free to carry. If I consider worst case scenario of 25% tongue weight - I get to carry "only" 8300 lbs of a loaded trailer including its own weight. Which leads me to the question of how is anyone within manufacturer limits on the road? I see a lot of crew cab, diesel 4x4s hauling huge rigs that in my humble estimate sometimes weigh at least 15,000 lbs. From what I understand there is not much difference even with a 3500 SRW (full ton) in carrying capacity in the same configuration as my truck.

[Bedlam]

If you are trying to stay within manufacturer warranty ratings, your current truck does not have the capacity. If you are trying to stay within legal ratings, it may be possible based on the weight declared on your vehicle registration. Let us know which way you want to go with this so we can help.