Making sense of Tow #'s

[itguy08]

Looking at buying my first truck and need some help with Towing. We're planning to get an RV in a year or 2 and I want it to do it right the first time!

Looking at a 2011 F150 Supercrew Ecoboost with Max Tow. According to the Payload on the door jamb it's 1850 lbs and Ford says it can tow 11,200 lbs.

Now we've been looking at RV's for a few years now and like these:
Jayco 33RLDS
Jayco 26RKS
Lacrosse 323RST
Lacrosse 327RES
Prowler 30PRLS
Outback 316RL

All have gross weights between 8,400 lbs and 10,300 lbs. and about 30-36ft. I worked up a spreadsheet based on 10 and 15% tongue weight and it looks like at 10% we're good as we have 820 and 1010 payload left. At 15% it gets a lot closer and in some cases only 300 lbs.

Is this doable and with a Weight Distributing hitch would it make sense or should we be looking elsewhere?

Also the #'s I came up with on young weight are much different that the RV brochures. Is that normal?

[itguy08]

Sure although I misspoke - it was from the RV Consumer Group. Too much going on in my head and got them confused. :?

I found it here: How to Tow Version 2

[Ron_Gratz]

itguy08 wrote:
---Also found an interesting towing whitepaper written by the RVIA that echoed a lot of points made here.---

Can you post a link to the RVIA paper?

Thanks,

Ron

[Seattle_Lion]

itguy08 wrote:
Then I guess the next question would be what should we be looking at for towing behind this truck? Weight, size, what?

The only thing keeping me in the F150 camp is the fact that the truck may end up being my daily driver a few years down the road and I've got a 38 mile 1 way commute so getting, say 19 MPG in an Ecobost vs, say 10MPG in a F250 makes a huge difference in fuel costs.

We had the same F150 ..super crew Eco boost...We bought an ultralight with a loaded weight of 7,000 lbs. we towed it last summer. It was ok but we were over GMWR. We had the FX4 and a 1,200 lb payload. Tongue weight is 13% 920 lbs. without the trailer we got 18mpg.

In November we traded our 2013 F150 for a 2014 F350 diesel. We get about 16mpg without the trailer...not that different than the F150. By the way, I suggest you not get the F250. It is the same price and has the same dimensions and options as the F350. If you go with the superduty you will have a way better and safer tow.

[itguy08]

Thought I posted this here too but it looks like I didn't.

Thanks for all your advice and suggestions. Gave me a lot to think about and go over with the wife. Also found an interesting towing whitepaper written by the RVIA that echoed a lot of points made here.

Ended up pulling the trigger on the F150 on Friday. We both really liked the truck, at 43k it is practically new and with the max tow package should serve us well. Been driving it the last few days and it's a great truck and almost as smooth of a ride as the SHO (which I am keeping).

We looked at a lot of floorplans in the under 30 ft range and around 8k GVWR. We're both confident we can find something that will work with the truck and allow us to tow safely.

Thanks again - it is greatly appreciated.

[rvhippo]

itguy08 wrote:
Also the #'s I came up with on young weight are much different that the RV brochures. Is that normal?

With the help of many forum members, I've been going through the same questions you have. What I've found out is that the trailer manufacturers' brochures and advertisements give the rosiest picture of trailer weight. You have to look at the yellow sticker on the trailer or actually weigh the trailer to find out the true weight.

For example, the trailer I want to buy is listed by the manufacturer at 330 lbs tongue weight, 3955 lbs shipping weight. These advertised numbers have nothing to do with reality. Once you add: water, propane, battery and options (like an A/C), the actual tongue weight increases by 41% to 560lbs and the total weight balloons to 4690 lbs. this is BEFORE you put in any personal cargo. No food, clothes or gear.

Note, the advertised tongue weight comes in at (an unsafe) 8% while the "ready-for-the-road" actual tongue weight comes in at a safer 12%.

Most tow-vehicles will run out of payload-rating way before they run out of tow-rating (unless you are flat towing something like a car). As a wiser-than-me RV'er told me, the moment you put propane and a battery on your trailer, tongue weight is going to go up at least 100 lbs.

As far as GVWR and GCWR, I don't feel driving at the rated limits is a problem. You should be able to maintain safe driving speeds (although serious grades will have you doing 45mph with the trucks in the right lane with the hazard flashers on). The handling, braking and acceleration will be greatly reduced but if you drive accordingly, it's not a problem. Please consider, the manufacturers warranty for 5 yrs / 100,000 miles for operation within GVWR and GCWR. They know there will be no problems or they wouldn't warranty it.

I think a lot of people freak out when the engine is revving high (upgrade or downgrade). But it's not a problem. Sustained operation under engine redline within weight ratings will not hurt anything. It's just really, really noisy and if you're used to a quiet sedan it may be unnerving until you get used to it.

High payloads also shift the center-of-gravity way, way up. The truck feels like it's going to tip over all the time. Statistically, roll-over accidents increase dramatically as payload goes up (check out 15-passenger vans if you want to see what high payload does to the roll-over accident rate). A heavily loaded 1-ton truck or van is not as idiot-proof as a sedan. If you drive it like a sedan, you will get into trouble.

As far as 3/4-ton vs. 1-ton goes, get the 1-ton. Capability skyrockets for minimal cost (as long as you don't get the diesel). This will give you room to upgrade trailers in 3-4 years without getting killed on the truck due to depreciation.

You are borderline with the F150 on those trailers. Operation over rated weight limits will have long-term effects on reliability and longevity. The engineering/contracting company I worked at ran a small fleet of pickup trucks and vans. I would do random oil sampling and I ok'd the repair bills. It's cheaper in the long run to buy and operate a 1-ton truck rather than overload a 1/2-ton because of the long-term repair bills. The 1-ton has a bigger engine, bigger brakes, better transmission and heavier suspension. If you are going to drive the truck in to the ground like we did, the 1-ton trucks simply last longer with fewer repairs than the 1/2-ton trucks. If you're going to short-term lease, the 1/2-ton is cheaper, but I feel sorry for the next owner.

Do NOT buy diesel unless you have a specific application (long-distance super heavy towing) that absolutely requires it. The maintenance costs on diesel overwhelm any fuel cost savings. A minor diesel engine problem will cost more to fix than a warrantied re-built gas engine (including labor).

If you're going to keep the truck for a long time, get the 1-ton. It will give you more flexibility and room to expand into a larger trailer in the future. The increased fuel costs are minor compared to the depreciation costs of swapping for a new truck every 3 years.

[gijoecam]

uterep wrote:
Also look at the HD option this push's the F150 closer to a F250 in towing ability

Umm, yeah, no... Not really. There is one particular combination of F150 that can tow about a hundred pounds more than the least capable F250, but that's about the only overlap. Every other F250 is more capable on paper, and, quite frankly, the experience is night-and-day. For towing trailers in the weight range the OP is considering, he's well into 3/4 ton territory.

[Lowsuv]

Only 12.3 % get it right the first time .
For your first trailer buy a new-used directly from the owner and not a dealer .
The owner will throw in all of the little RV gadgets that he paid full retail for .
Most first time tt buyers are sellers by the 4th year .
They may not camp as often as they thought .
Or they may decide they bought too much trailer for their tow vehicle .
So the depreciation hit is less if they bought used , not new .
A longer trailer is a longer lever centered on its axles .
The lighter the tow vehicle the more the lever can move the tow vehicle .
Commercial trucks have their axles at each end of the trailer .
But not travel trailers .
Hence the need for a heavier tow vehicle if you choose to tow a longer lever .
We got it right on our 4th try .
3 /4 ton diesel 9200# gvw pickup towing a 21 TT ( OAL = 24' actual) that is 7280 # GVW but actual 5300 # on the axles .
We use 987# tongue weight for sure fire anti sway .
Every pound behind the TT axle is uncontrolled weight and wants to move you .
Each pound between the TT axle and the TV hitch is controlled weight and wants to follow your 9200# gvw TV.

[Seattle_Lion]

uterep wrote:
Also look at the HD option this push's the F150 closer to a F250 in towing ability

If you do consider the F250, I suggest you just go to F350. Both cost about the same and the F350 has 1 ton capacity. It's hard to find a new F250 anymore. The dealer said that Ford is considering dropping it.

[Seattle_Lion]

itguy08 wrote:
Then I guess the next question would be what should we be looking at for towing behind this truck? Weight, size, what?

The only thing keeping me in the F150 camp is the fact that the truck may end up being my daily driver a few years down the road and I've got a 38 mile 1 way commute so getting, say 19 MPG in an Ecobost vs, say 10MPG in a F250 makes a huge difference in fuel costs.

We get 15-17 mpg daily driving in a F350 diesel. It's just a little less than the F150 eco boost we had (18 mpg).

[ependydad]

So, here's how I approach things (and just so happened to make calculators for it :)).

1) Find out your ballpark numbers- you'd be amazed at how much payload gets eaten up:
Towing Calculator based on Truck's Payload

(it's even better to load up like you're going camping and actually get weighed- (calculator)


2) Then, to get a better feeling if 10% or 15% of tongue weight is applicable in your case, you can use this estimator to take the reported dry weights and extrapolate the tongue weight percentage. You can then either take the dry weight + 1,000 or 1,500 pounds (given the size of camper) OR take the GVWR for the most conservative route. And figure an estimate for the actual loaded tongue weight:
Tongue Weight Calculated from Dry Weights

[MitchF150]

Yeah, if you have that kind of commute everyday, I'd be thinking about driving something else besides a truck.... 😉

I drive my 1997 F150 as a DD, but my round trip commute is 36 miles. I go thru about $250/month for gas with it...

If if it was me, I'd consider the F150 you have in mind as a DD only if I was going to be towing a slightly smaller TT than you have listed..

Now, I don't care for that size of TT's to begin with, so it's easy for me to say that.. 😉 If I were to want that size TT, I would not even consider an F150 no matter what the 'specs' say... Specs are just specs and really don't mean a thing unless you know what it's like to tow at a vehicles MAX ratings compared to towing with a vehicle that is NOT at it's MAX ratings..

I completely respect Ron's advice, but I've always been one that DOES shop by the GVWR of an RV.... I grew up with a Mother that packed anything and everything to go camping and Dad always had to accommodate that! 🙂 If there is storage space for something, my Mom would find it and FILL IT! ha, ha!

We never found ourselves without anything we didn't eventually use either! Dad would not admit it, but I KNOW he appreciated all the stuff Mom brought!

Anyway, it's all different thinking and different experiences that cause us to do and say what we say, so with that being said....

It's up to YOU to decide what kind of RV you want and what you will pack in it... I have never understood the 'pack light' but have a huge RV that has storage and CCC up the ying yang, yet not be able to use it.... But, again, that's just me and the way my family packed and camped... We did the tent thing and minimal packing and that was fine, but once we got the RV... Well, Mom figured it was time to take what she wanted and be damned otherwise! 🙂

Okay, enough about me.... It's about YOU and what you want and need.. If towing at MAX ratings is fine for you, great... If having a huge RV and packing LIGHT is fine for you, great.... If the combo you end up with works for you, regardless of it's weights, great.... If not, well, adjust and make it so it's great for you and that's all that matters in the end.. It's YOU that is going to have to tow this thing, so YOU should determine what is going to work for YOU... 🙂

Good luck and all that matters is what works for YOU! 🙂

Mitch

[APT]

With the F-150 and 1800+ pounds of payload of the Max tow and HD 8200 GVWR, the next limit is receiver. I think 1150 pounds is the limit using a WDH. Somewhere around 7k dry and under 900 pounds dry TW should be good for that truck.

For the DD concern @ 76 miles a day, use the truck as a TV and work vehicle only. Get something nicer for your DD that gets far better FE. Then you can find any 2007.5+ GM 3/4 ton 6.0L gasser and get the RV from your list above.

[handye9]

itguy08 wrote:
Thanks. I was wondering what an average for all that stuff would be. Most likely I'd never travel with the tanks full - we're mainly looking at campground camping so emptying tanks before we leave would not be an issue.

The 1850 is straight off the yellow sticker on the truck. I verified it after the test drive.

Anything that may have been added (bed liner, bed cap, step bars, floor mats, etc) to the truck, since it left the assembly line, will reduce payload, pound for pound.

Only way to get actual payload available, is to weigh the truck (with full fuel and driver) and subtract that weight from GVWR. The difference is available for WD hitch, passengers, cargo, and trailer tongue (hitch) weight. On your truck, that may, or may not be 1850.

Couple weeks ago, there was a poster who assumed they had max payload (advertised number) of 2390. After weighing and comparing to GVWR, they found they only had 1400 available. That truck was a late model F150.

[Ron_Gratz]

itguy08 wrote:

All have gross weights between 8,400 lbs and 10,300 lbs. and about 30-36ft. I worked up a spreadsheet based on 10 and 15% tongue weight and it looks like at 10% we're good as we have 820 and 1010 payload left. At 15% it gets a lot closer and in some cases only 300 lbs.

Is this doable and with a Weight Distributing hitch would it make sense or should we be looking elsewhere?

IMO, you can ignore the TT's GVWR unless you actually plan to load the TT to 100% of its CCC -- most people do not.
Try to find the TT's factory-delivered weight (look for the UVW value on a yellow sticker located on the left outside near the front).
Then estimate how much cargo you will carry in the TT. Some people get by with as little as 500%, many report cargo weights around 1000#, and some load as much as 1500#. Whether you plan to travel with liquids in the fresh water and waste tanks will make a difference.
Add the estimated cargo and liquids weight to the UVW and assume the tongue weight will be about 13% of the total.
With a properly-adjusted WDH, a load equal to approximately 80% of the tongue weight will be added to the TV

You also must estimate the weight of occupants, cargo, and added equipment for the TV. Don't forget to include about 100# for the weight of a WDH. These weights plus about 80% of the tongue weight should not exceed the TV's "payload capacity".

I agree with those who recommend trying to find a F-150 which has both MAX Tow and the HD Payload Pkg.

Also the #'s I came up with on young weight are much different that the RV brochures. Is that normal?

The brochure TW values are not intended to represent what the TW of a loaded-for-camping TT is likely to be.
The brochure TWs are typical values of TW for an empty TT with no optional equipment.

Ron