mto- ontario- newbie truck licensing question

[bandit86]

If my short bed quad cab 03 dodge ram diesel that weighs 7012 pounds and has a 9000 GVWR, is rated to tow 12870 pounds is hooked up to a 8500 pound 5th wheel camper, would I need the yellow commercial sticker on the truck? If I read the regulation correctly anything over 4500KG or 9900 pounds needs a commercial sticker unless it's an RV so I should be alright without special licensing requirements. If I were to tow a utility trailer, 9900 pounds less truck and cargo say 7500 I could tow a trailer weighing 2400 pounds, does that sound right?

Gearing up to go see a camper, private deal, the payload rating of my truck is 1880 pounds. How would I know how much the 5th wheel will add to the truck, is it on the data tag?

[JaxDad]

Nvr2loud wrote:
Until you show me proof of this change, I'm going with the known existing rules, not some random MTO officers interpretation.

What change?

The regulation has been the same since it was first passed into law.

If the weight of, the RGW, or the manufacturers GWR of the truck exceeds 4,500 KG it requires a yellow annual safety sticker. Period.

If the actual weight and GWR is under 4,500 KG but the trailer, ANY type of trailer including an RV, exceeds 2,800 KG then the truck MUST be licensed for at least the actual combined weight of both truck and trailer. Period.

Considering the 2,800 KG trailer limit it's not possible to have a truck light enough that you could register it for truck and trailer combined and still be under 4,500 KG.

[gorjo01]

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

What you are saying used to be the case, but not anymore..the regulations have changed...example, a truck camper and pickup combo used to be considered a motorhome, therefore exempt, but not anymore ....(the government is broke and needs money)..therefore the over 2800 kg on the axles applies to camping trailers also, whether you like it or not. RV's are exempt from CVOR but pickups not exempt from annual inspections if hauling big heavy fifthwheels. Not that I want to argue with you, just want people to know because if you get pulled over by the MTO, the "I didn't know" won't work anymore. But you can do what you want.

And actually, I spoke to 2 different MTO officer's but wanted to shorten my previous post. They both said the same thing to me. Also an email to the Ministry of transportation of Ontario was the final confirmation of this.

Until you show me proof of this change, I'm going with the known existing rules, not some random MTO officers interpretation.

Here's an email I received from the MTO:

Thank you for taking the time to contact the Ministry of Transportation's Customer & Traveller Information Management Office.

The issue you have raised falls under the responsibility of the Carrier Safety and Enforcement Branch. You may contact them directly at 416 246-7166 or toll free at 1-800-387-7736 (Ontario only).

An annual safety inspection is required:
on a truck, which does not tow a trailer if:
* the truck's actual weight, registered gross weight or gross vehicle weight rating exceeds 4,500 kgs (9,920 lbs).
on a truck, which tows a house trailer only:
* if the truck's RGW exceeds 4,500 kgs.
* if the truck's gross vehicle weight rating exceeds 4,500 kgs, or
* if the truck's actual weight (without the house trailer attached), exceeds 4,500 kgs.
Notes:
* house trailer weight is not used when determining a truck's actual weight.
* house trailer weight is used to determine a truck's RGW.
* a house trailer does not require an annual safety inspection.
on both the truck and towed trailer (other than a house trailer) if:
* the truck's actual weight, registered gross weight or gross vehicle weight rating exceeds 4,500 kgs, or
* the actual weight of the truck, when added to the actual weight of the towed trailer or trailers exceeds 4,500 kgs, or
* the gross vehicle weight rating of the truck, when added to the gross vehicle weight rating of the towed trailer or trailers exceeds 4,500 kgs.
If you have additional questions please contact the Carrier Safety Branch.
We thank you for your inquiry and encourage you to contact us in the future, as we continually strive to improve our service to our customers.

Sincerely,

Louise
Customer & Traveller Information Management Office


Definition of RGW from the MTO:

Q16: How do I determine registered gross weights for trucks towing trailers?

The registered gross weight (RGW) determines the fee paid for commercial licence plates (black and white). The truck's RGW is based on and must be at least equal to the actual weight of the truck, or the truck, trailer(s) and load(s).

The RGW is indicated in kilograms (kg) on the right portion (plate portion) of a truck's ownership, to the right of "REG. GROSS WT." One kilogram equals 2.204 pounds and one pound equals .4536 (kg).

A trailer permit does not have a RGW. Generally the weight of a towed trailer and its load are added to the RGW of the truck. Load includes the driver, passengers, fuel, equipment, tools, cargo, equipment, etc. carried in the truck and trailer.

"Truck" includes pickups and business-type vans with commercial licence plates. Farm plated trucks are subject to the same RGW rules.

Light trailers that transmit to the highway a total weight of 2,800 kilograms (6,173 lb.) or less are not included in determining registered gross weight.
Light trailers that transmit to the highway a total weight of 2,800 kilograms (6,173 lb.) or less are not included in determining registered gross weight.

To determine how much an attached trailer transmits to the highway and how much a truck should be registered for:
1.Weigh the truck only, with the trailer attached.
Illustration One - Weighing a truck only - Weight A
Illustration of weighing a truck only, with the trailer attached
2.Weigh the trailer only, with the trailer attached to the truck.
Illustration Two - Weighing a trailer only - Weight B
Illustration of weighing the trailer only, with the trailer attached to the truck


Note exemption for recreational vehicles was removed when calculating RGW, I did have a copy of the old regulations that exempted RV's.

PS: I spoke to 2 different MTO officers who said the same thing, so they must both be wrong and you are right? Do whatever you want...I tried to offer helpful information..I could had done without the attitude.

[Nvr2loud]

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

What you are saying used to be the case, but not anymore..the regulations have changed...example, a truck camper and pickup combo used to be considered a motorhome, therefore exempt, but not anymore ....(the government is broke and needs money)..therefore the over 2800 kg on the axles applies to camping trailers also, whether you like it or not. RV's are exempt from CVOR but pickups not exempt from annual inspections if hauling big heavy fifthwheels. Not that I want to argue with you, just want people to know because if you get pulled over by the MTO, the "I didn't know" won't work anymore. But you can do what you want.

And actually, I spoke to 2 different MTO officer's but wanted to shorten my previous post. They both said the same thing to me. Also an email to the Ministry of transportation of Ontario was the final confirmation of this.

Until you show me proof of this change, I'm going with the known existing rules, not some random MTO officers interpretation.

[gorjo01]

JaxDad wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

What you are saying used to be the case, but not anymore..the regulations have changed...example, a truck camper and pickup combo used to be considered a motorhome, therefore exempt, but not anymore ....(the government is broke and needs money)..therefore the over 2800 kg on the axles applies to camping trailers also, whether you like it or not. RV's are exempt from CVOR but pickups not exempt from annual inspections if hauling big heavy fifthwheels. Not that I want to argue with you, just want people to know because if you get pulled over by the MTO, the "I didn't know" won't work anymore. But you can do what you want.

And actually, I spoke to 2 different MTO officer's but wanted to shorten my previous post. They both said the same thing to me. Also an email to the Ministry of transportation of Ontario was the final confirmation of this.

Wow, even more confusing / wrong information.

Pickups were never motorhomes, and never exempt.

The yellow annual safety sticker and a CVOR are tow VERY different things.

A pickup with a curb weight, or registered gross weight of less than 4,500 KG or 9,900 pounds does not require a yellow sticker.

If a pickup under the above limit is towing a trailer that has a GVWR of 2,800 KG or more, OR, actually weighs more than that, and it is NOT an RV, then it and the trailer MUST have a yellow sticker.

If however, a pickup under 4,500 KG is towing an RV that weighs more than 2,800 KG even if it's an RV, the truck MUST be registered for at least the weight of the truck and the trailer weights added together.

This will result in a RGVW of the truck of +4,500 KG. At this point the truck MUST have a yellow stick.

The RV does not require a yellow sticker. However, now that the truck has a RGVW of +4,500 KG ANY other (non RV) trailer it tows (even a 1,000 pound GVW single snowmobile trailer) will require a yellow sticker.

deleted

[JaxDad]

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

What you are saying used to be the case, but not anymore..the regulations have changed...example, a truck camper and pickup combo used to be considered a motorhome, therefore exempt, but not anymore ....(the government is broke and needs money)..therefore the over 2800 kg on the axles applies to camping trailers also, whether you like it or not. RV's are exempt from CVOR but pickups not exempt from annual inspections if hauling big heavy fifthwheels. Not that I want to argue with you, just want people to know because if you get pulled over by the MTO, the "I didn't know" won't work anymore. But you can do what you want.

And actually, I spoke to 2 different MTO officer's but wanted to shorten my previous post. They both said the same thing to me. Also an email to the Ministry of transportation of Ontario was the final confirmation of this.

Wow, even more confusing / wrong information.

Pickups were never motorhomes, and never exempt.

The yellow annual safety sticker and a CVOR are tow VERY different things.

A pickup with a curb weight, or registered gross weight of less than 4,500 KG or 9,900 pounds does not require a yellow sticker.

If a pickup under the above limit is towing a trailer that has a GVWR of 2,800 KG or more, OR, actually weighs more than that, and it is NOT an RV, then it and the trailer MUST have a yellow sticker.

If however, a pickup under 4,500 KG is towing an RV that weighs more than 2,800 KG even if it's an RV, the truck MUST be registered for at least the weight of the truck and the trailer weights added together.

This will result in a RGVW of the truck of +4,500 KG. At this point the truck MUST have a yellow stick.

The RV does not require a yellow sticker. However, now that the truck has a RGVW of +4,500 KG ANY other (non RV) trailer it tows (even a 1,000 pound GVW single snowmobile trailer) will require a yellow sticker.

[gorjo01]

Nvr2loud wrote:

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

What you are saying used to be the case, but not anymore..the regulations have changed...example, a truck camper and pickup combo used to be considered a motorhome, therefore exempt, but not anymore ....(the government is broke and needs money)..therefore the over 2800 kg on the axles applies to camping trailers also, whether you like it or not. RV's are exempt from CVOR but pickups not exempt from annual inspections if hauling big heavy fifthwheels. Not that I want to argue with you, just want people to know because if you get pulled over by the MTO, the "I didn't know" won't work anymore. But you can do what you want.

And actually, I spoke to 2 different MTO officer's but wanted to shorten my previous post. They both said the same thing to me. Also an email to the Ministry of transportation of Ontario was the final confirmation of this.

[Nvr2loud]

gorjo01 wrote:

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

He is mixing up two different requirements... A camping trailer is completely exempt from the commercial vehicle requirements, regardless of weight. The towing vehicle does not need the sticker, period.

[gorjo01]

Nvr2loud wrote:

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

I personally spoke to an MTO officer and this is the correct answer.

Weigh your truck and trailer and if your RV axles weigh over 2800 kg you have to register your truck for BOTH truck and trailer weights which would bring you over the 4500 kg which would mean an annual safety (yellow stick)on the truck only not the RV..no distinction is made between commercial trailer or RV for this provision when it comes to sticker on the truck.

However, the MTO officer said when the truck is pulling the RV the yellow sticker is not required but when truck not pulling trailer the sticker is required...kinda of stupid. in other words, without the yellow sticker you would only be able to use the truck legally when pulling your RV trailer if it's axles weighed more than 2800kg...I know it's confusing.

[Nvr2loud]

scouser wrote:
ANY pick-up truck over GVWR of 10,000lbs (see sticker on door post)wether it's personal use or Comm needs a yearly safety (yellow sticker) No safety on an RV trailer.

Not true, all pickup trucks need a commercial plate in ontario but not all of them need the annual inspection sticker.

For ANY business use:
Truck and trailer need annual inspection with yellow stickers.

Under personal use only:
If the actual weight of the truck loaded exceeds 4500 kg then an annual sticker is required. The truck can tow any trailer up to approx 2800 Kg (I don't know the exact number) without the yellow sticker. ANY trailer towed behind the truck that exceeds the 2800 will need the sticker, and the truck would also need the sticker at that point. The weight of the trailer is added to the weight of the loaded truck only after the actual trailer weight exceeds 2800 Kg. Camper trailers are exempt from this requirement.

[WillyB]

Jaxdad;
Pickups used for personal purposes only:
A pickup that is never used for business purposes and never tows a trailer that is used for business purposes is exempt from CVOR, daily inspections and hours-of-service rules. This applies regardless of the pickup's registered gross weight or any actual weights of the pickup and or trailer.
This is right from the mto site. Definition of a pickup is any truck under 13227 lbs with the original factory box or exact replacement.
Even though they are plated (4 or 5 numbers followed by 2 letters) commercial, the personal use applies.
Sorry for beating this horse to death.
Happy towing!

[bandit86]

Thanks for the info, bought me a keystone hobbi toy hauler today. Pics in the toy hauler forum in a few

[JaxDad]

Wow, soooo much wrong information here!

If the manufacturers GVWR (in the door), the GVWR of the truck plus the GVWR of the trailer (except boat trailers or RV's), the actual weight of the truck, or the actual weight of the truck plus the actual weight of the trailer exceeds 4,500 KG (9,900 pounds) the truck (and any non-exempt trailers it pulls) needs a yellow annual safety inspection. Period.

6,000 KG is the cutoff point for needing a CVOR which is a completely different animal.

[scouser]

Hi Willy,
Thanks for the info I'll check it again to see if I need a safety or not, the way I read it is if your truck GVWR on the door post manufactures plate is over 9,900lbs gross vehicle weight rating (mine is 11,500lbs)you need a yearly safety the vehicle automatically becomes a commercial vehicle because of the GVWR not that you use it for commercial but by weight definition,you can't change the vehicle GVWR on the door post but you can change the vehicle registered gross weight which effects the price you pay for your plate sticker.
They certainly don't make it easy for the regular guy to follow these regulations thats for sure....have a good weekend.

[WillyB]

Scouser; Did a quick check on the MTO website. If you use a pickup commercially and it is registered over 9900 lbs you need a sticker. If it is personal use only, the RGW can be 6000kg or 13227lbs before you need a yearly safety. Most duallies go up to around the 13000lb gross range, so no sticker required. The only thing that happens is your plate fee goes up as your gross goes up.
On a side note, back in the 70's I can remember having to have my name and town lettered on the side of the half-ton pickup to be legal.
How times have changed! Have a good night.