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Stupid question about tires

Crowe
Explorer
Explorer
So y'all can call me uneducated, stupid or whatever you like, but the 5th wheel we are looking at comes with nitrogen in the tires. Are there nitrogen pumps available? Can you mix it with air or just swap it over? Just seem weird to me.

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be

Douglas Adams

[purple]RV-less for now but our spirits are still on the open road. [/purple]
45 REPLIES 45

Thermoguy
Explorer II
Explorer II
Depends on the shop - some are free, some charge a couple bucks. I think I paid $5 a tire a number of years back, but have never paid since as other places are free. Although I have only done it twice and the last was Costco which was included with the tires. But the tires were cheaper at Costco vs Discount Tire.

JKJavelin
Explorer III
Explorer III
I'm just curious...how much do they charge to put nitrogen in your tires. Anybody know?? Do they meter it? Flat fee?
JK
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4x4van
Explorer III
Explorer III
Everything you never wanted to know about using Nitrogen in tires.
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2012Coleman
Explorer II
Explorer II
I just use compressed air - and you will need some goof-off to remove those dumb stickers...
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time2roll
Nomad
Nomad
DrewE wrote:
Water vapor not near the dew point does indeed act as an ideal gas, for practical purposes.

Air from a compressor (at least in somewhat humid climates), if there is no dryer in the line, will be saturated and pretty close to the dew point at the tank pressure, as evidenced by the condensation that collects in the compressor tank. Tire pressure is lower than the tank pressure, which lowers the pressure dew point in the tire somewhat, but it's still well in the range of ambient conditions that a tire is likely to be exposed to.

While rubber is somewhat more permeable to water than to air, it's still a very slow process for it to get out. (It's still more permeable to carbon dioxide, and it takes a long time for a tire filled with that to deflate noticeably.)

I have flipped a lot of tires back in the day when it paid my rent. Never any moisture ever. Tires are always dry inside. This in the 1980s when no attention was paid to use nitrogen, use an air drier, separator or filter. Just compress to 175 psi and fill the tire to 32. Drain the shop compressor when it seems to be short cycling. No perception of moisture in the tires.

philh
Explorer II
Explorer II
Any shop that does not use a dryer in their line is seriously ruining air tools.

H2O vapor will not become a problem until tire temperature reached 212F, and at that point, you have much bigger issues than potential pressure changes caused by water.

DrewE
Explorer II
Explorer II
CapriRacer wrote:
DrewE wrote:
..... The only component of air that expands or contracts significantly differently than nitrogen alone is water vapor. .......


Sorry, that is not true.

Water vapor behaves like an ideal gas EXCEPT near the dew point. Even a tire with liquid water in it will eventually lose all that water through the sidewalls, and become like the outside air - which is normally NOT near the dew point.


Water vapor not near the dew point does indeed act as an ideal gas, for practical purposes.

Air from a compressor (at least in somewhat humid climates), if there is no dryer in the line, will be saturated and pretty close to the dew point at the tank pressure, as evidenced by the condensation that collects in the compressor tank. Tire pressure is lower than the tank pressure, which lowers the pressure dew point in the tire somewhat, but it's still well in the range of ambient conditions that a tire is likely to be exposed to.

While rubber is somewhat more permeable to water than to air, it's still a very slow process for it to get out. (It's still more permeable to carbon dioxide, and it takes a long time for a tire filled with that to deflate noticeably.)

Jarlaxle
Explorer II
Explorer II
fj12ryder wrote:
ktmrfs wrote:
PartyOf Five wrote:
Our mechanic suggested nitrogen in the car tires if we did a rotation as winter approached. Apparentky it doesn't contract and expand as much in the cold and so is better in extreme temps.
That was already a few years ago- the fad seems to have died down.


NOT true. all gases follow boyles law PV=RT. since V (volume) is constant, P is strictly a function of T (temperature) where T is absolute temp, E.G. room temp is 273 or so Kelvin

Nitrogen molecules are slightly larger than Oxygen, so pressure drop from migration through the tire will be very slightly less.
Personally I think the less change in pressure is caused by the dryer nitrogen compared to regular air. There should be no water vapor in the nitrogen fill, and water vapor will expand and contract more than gases without the water vapor. JMO anyway.

But basically unnecessary, just a way for some place to make a few extra pence.


If you're worried, a water separator for your compressor is about thirty bucks.
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Jarlaxle
Explorer II
Explorer II
Total scam, a way to separate the gullible from their money.
John and Elizabeth (Liz), with Briza the size XL tabby
St. Bernard Marm, cats Vierna and Maya...RIP. ๐Ÿ˜ž
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion

Thermoguy
Explorer II
Explorer II
OK - so a point of view from the other side. I have had 3 sets of tires on the same vehicle, same basic tire as well, some changes over the years, but same tire. First set, new with vehicle, a friend recommended nitrogen due to the low profile tires. A nearby place removed the air and replaced with nitrogen, their pump system did something that seemed like it was removing and refilling in a step process, but assuming you can't get all the air out. So, my experience, the tires held up great, 80K miles, stayed within a few pounds regardless of hot and cold weather. Next set, different tire shop (discount) regular air. Tires only lasted 40K miles, had issues with one that kept losing air on a regular basis, no one from 3 different shops could find anything wrong with the tire, but I had to fill regularly. Now, 3rd set, same brand, but this time Costco. Costco uses nitrogen. Tires have been on for over a year, haven't had a single tire issue, tire pressure stays within a couple pounds. So, yes, I think nitrogen is a good thing, but also don't search it out and have never paid extra for it. But, there are shops that have nitrogen compressors, like Costco.

Just my 2 cents from experience, fact not fiction.

CapriRacer
Explorer II
Explorer II
DrewE wrote:
..... The only component of air that expands or contracts significantly differently than nitrogen alone is water vapor. .......


Sorry, that is not true.

Water vapor behaves like an ideal gas EXCEPT near the dew point. Even a tire with liquid water in it will eventually lose all that water through the sidewalls, and become like the outside air - which is normally NOT near the dew point.
********************************************************************

CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com

Crowe
Explorer
Explorer
My faith in myself is restored by all of your answers-thanks! It's also a very interesting discussion.

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be

Douglas Adams

[purple]RV-less for now but our spirits are still on the open road. [/purple]

Lwiddis
Explorer II
Explorer II
"With nitrogen tires, you get the really, really cool green valve caps!"

I find green valve caps REALLY impress the ladies!
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Dutch_12078
Explorer II
Explorer II
Purging the air in the tires by deflating them and then reinflating with nitrogen a couple of times, it's possible to reach a ~98% nitrogen fill. Even just deflating the tire and refilling with nitrogen once can reach a 95% fill since the remaining 78/20/2% air is compressed to a smaller volume when the tire is pressurized. Is it worth the trouble for most common personal vehicle use? No...
Dutch
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